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What a catch 22....

 
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: What a catch 22.... Reply with quote

Think the Feds will eventually tell property owners they can't tell trespassers to leave their property...or even ask them if they are indeed trespassers? I'm thinking of the flap about states, and some cities, passing laws about immigrants.
I'm not so sure about the recent attempt to amend the constitution to repudiate citizenship gained by being born in the U.S. Wouldn't leave me very firm grounds to stand on...or most of the people already here, for that matter.
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erhea13



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 117
Location: So Cal

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really, what many Republicans - read Lindsay Graham - are talking about here is the unforseen issues with the 14th Amendment. It was intended to confer citizenship on freed slaves but is now used to proved illegal immigrants a foot into amnesty with their anchor-babies. To my mind, no one can put forth a believable argument stating that the drafters of the 14th Amendment could forsee the advent of the anchor-baby, especially considering the murky status of the border states at that time - most of their current land area were still either Mexican territory or American territories, not actual states whith the legal rights and responsibliites thereof.

I do not think that the 14th Amendment will be drastically amended - nor do I think it should, even though a few sections bear re-reading. However, I do believe that the federal government has in no way lived up to its responsibilities to border states concerning illegal immigration and the problems that are caused and exacerbated by it. A friend of mine - she and I both went to college in Arizona - posed an interesting perspective on SB1070. She suggested that the bill, while certainly meant to be enforced, was meant more as a message to Washington in essence stating: "Do your job, or we will do it for you, and you are not going to like how we go about it." Frankly, I think even Democrats/Liberals . . . ie anyone opposed to SB1070 would prefer that particular bill to a further relaxing of gunlaws designed to put firearms in the hands of the citizens of Arizona who are afraid as a result of illegal immigration and its many consequences.
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maryskl



Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 354
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as there are jobs available for immigrants in America, they will continue to come. Why would people leave the only home they have ever known, their family and friends and risk imprisonment or deportation to sneak into a country where they do not even know the language? Because the economic gain outweighs the risks. IF the government was TRULY interested in slowing the flow of illegal immigrants, they would look at the head of the snake instead of the tail. If American businesses did not hire them, there would be no jobs to draw them to this country. But any attention paid to fining or imposing criminal penalties on those businesses that help circumvent the immigration laws is cursory at best. Instead we dump on the powerless immigrants and incite anger against them instead of the companies that are making money on the backs of their labor.
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Sterling_95



Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maryskl wrote:
But any attention paid to fining or imposing criminal penalties on those businesses that help circumvent the immigration laws is cursory at best. Instead we dump on the powerless immigrants and incite anger against them instead of the companies that are making money on the backs of their labor.


The Obama administration has indeed cracked down on businesses that hire illegal immigrants, but the law of unintended consequences reared its ugly head and subsequently crime rates in border states have been spiking. Which makes a certain amount of sense, because people still need to eat. However, I'd say that fining the businesses that hire illegal immigrants is of limited use because for starters, sometimes the gain of having the immigrants outweighs any fines and secondly, identity theft is a booming business, so many of them are working with someone else's papers.

Unfortunately, though the majority of immigrants are probably hardworking people trying to make life better, the ones that have gone bad have gone truly bad and are greatly responsible for inciting the anti-illegal immigrant fervor. Even in California - not exactly a conservative stronghold - there have been some major issues with illegal gangs, drug trafficking and contraband marijuana farms. It got to the point where officials were warning people to stay out of state parks because of the risk of running across a marijuana farm and being executed by the gangs.
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maryskl



Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 354
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sterling_95 wrote:
maryskl wrote:
But any attention paid to fining or imposing criminal penalties on those businesses that help circumvent the immigration laws is cursory at best. Instead we dump on the powerless immigrants and incite anger against them instead of the companies that are making money on the backs of their labor.


The Obama administration has indeed cracked down on businesses that hire illegal immigrants, but the law of unintended consequences reared its ugly head and subsequently crime rates in border states have been spiking. Which makes a certain amount of sense, because people still need to eat. However, I'd say that fining the businesses that hire illegal immigrants is of limited use because for starters, sometimes the gain of having the immigrants outweighs any fines and secondly, identity theft is a booming business, so many of them are working with someone else's papers.

Unfortunately, though the majority of immigrants are probably hardworking people trying to make life better, the ones that have gone bad have gone truly bad and are greatly responsible for inciting the anti-illegal immigrant fervor. Even in California - not exactly a conservative stronghold - there have been some major issues with illegal gangs, drug trafficking and contraband marijuana farms. It got to the point where officials were warning people to stay out of state parks because of the risk of running across a marijuana farm and being executed by the gangs.


Most of the immigrants in this country are here legally. Most of those here illegally are gainfully employed in a legitimate business. Instead of focusing on trying to keep them out, just issue visas for those who can prove they have a job and treat those that are in gangs as the violent criminals they are. By criminalizing a class of people who are a useful part of the US economy, we distract needed law enforcement personnel from focusing on criminals that are a danger to society.
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Sterling_95



Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maryskl wrote:
Most of the immigrants in this country are here legally. Most of those here illegally are gainfully employed in a legitimate business. Instead of focusing on trying to keep them out, just issue visas for those who can prove they have a job and treat those that are in gangs as the violent criminals they are. By criminalizing a class of people who are a useful part of the US economy, we distract needed law enforcement personnel from focusing on criminals that are a danger to society.


Not to be a pain, but you're then essentially advocating that people who violated the law and jumped the queue in front of people who actually filed the paperwork be given preferential treatment because you like the service that they provide?

Isn't that the equivalent of me hiring my neighbor's 13 year old son to chauffeur me around with a fake driver's license and then insist that he be given a legal license if either of us be busted by the cops, because he's already driving anyway and if they gave licenses to 13 year olds, I wouldn't have to resort to illegal activities Very Happy ?

I'm sympathetic to them, honestly, I am, but my grandparents were legal immigrants, as am I, and it was a royal pain to jump through all the hoops, but we did. And honestly, you need to consider the precedent if you're issuing blanket visas for anyone who comes in illegally, provided that they have a job. What's to stop them then from coming in en masse, getting jobs at bottom rates, then striking or quitting once they have their visas?
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maryskl



Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 354
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sterling_95 wrote:
maryskl wrote:
Most of the immigrants in this country are here legally. Most of those here illegally are gainfully employed in a legitimate business. Instead of focusing on trying to keep them out, just issue visas for those who can prove they have a job and treat those that are in gangs as the violent criminals they are. By criminalizing a class of people who are a useful part of the US economy, we distract needed law enforcement personnel from focusing on criminals that are a danger to society.


Not to be a pain, but you're then essentially advocating that people who violated the law and jumped the queue in front of people who actually filed the paperwork be given preferential treatment because you like the service that they provide?

Isn't that the equivalent of me hiring my neighbor's 13 year old son to chauffeur me around with a fake driver's license and then insist that he be given a legal license if either of us be busted by the cops, because he's already driving anyway and if they gave licenses to 13 year olds, I wouldn't have to resort to illegal activities Very Happy ?

I'm sympathetic to them, honestly, I am, but my grandparents were legal immigrants, as am I, and it was a royal pain to jump through all the hoops, but we did. And honestly, you need to consider the precedent if you're issuing blanket visas for anyone who comes in illegally, provided that they have a job. What's to stop them then from coming in en masse, getting jobs at bottom rates, then striking or quitting once they have their visas?


Do you really believe that any of the proposals out there are going to work? If we built a wall along the Mexican border people would dig under it, fly over it or sail around it. The jobs are here. The money is here and unless you take away incentive or give in to supply and demand the status quo will continue.
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Sterling_95



Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maryskl wrote:
Do you really believe that any of the proposals out there are going to work? If we built a wall along the Mexican border people would dig under it, fly over it or sail around it. The jobs are here. The money is here and unless you take away incentive or give in to supply and demand the status quo will continue.


I don't believe that they will be 100% successful (or even 80% successful), but I also don't believe that establishing minimum wage means that employers will pay their employees fairly or that domestic abuse jail sentences will keep people from abusing their partners, and I'm not in favor of letting minimum wage or abuse laws slide.

All laws will only work up to a point. The best way is to make situations optimal for enforcing the law and applying both prevention and cure methods. Require things like e-verify for jobs, enforce the border, penalize employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, and allow certain options to fast track your application process (education level, job obtained, agreement to do military service, etc. But open borders won't work thanks to finite resources, and rewarding people for breaking the law is a bad precedent.

Here's an interesting question for posters: if you favor loose immigration laws, how would you feel about overseas labor being eligible for a fast track to citizenship? Therefore, instead of outsourcing, companies simply import their labor.
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maryskl



Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 354
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All laws will only work up to a point. The best way is to make situations optimal for enforcing the law and applying both prevention and cure methods. Require things like e-verify for jobs, enforce the border, penalize employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, and allow certain options to fast track your application process (education level, job obtained, agreement to do military service, etc. But open borders won't work thanks to finite resources, and rewarding people for breaking the law is a bad precedent.

Here's an interesting question for posters: if you favor loose immigration laws, how would you feel about overseas labor being eligible for a fast track to citizenship? Therefore, instead of outsourcing, companies simply import their labor.[/quote]

I can agree with most of what you said in the first paragraph. I would have a different take on the finite resources issue. I think the resources we currently employ to keep south of the border immigrants out is like trying to stop a flood by sticking your finger in a dike, so we are not using our resources wisely. If we modify our immigration policy there would be less criminality involved, hence no reward. My whole problem with the current laws is that it fosters racism against Hispanic people. I have yet to see any antipathy against any Canadians that might be here illegally.

The EU has open borders with their member countries and it seems to work quite well (my daughter just spent a year working in France). I will have to think a little more on the importation of labor, but my initial thought is that if we did import labor that was previously outsourced, then we introduce a large number of consumers into the American economy. Now they are getting paid by American companies, but spending their money in another country.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theories are always more comfortable than reality, I think. Obviously, the federal attempts to control immigration in the southwest haven't been very successful. The illegal aliens are trespassing. The states, like the homeowner in my original post, are just saying no to them, in my opinion.
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