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The vice presidential debate...
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Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 882

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have three Romanian sisters-in-law who have lived it first hand, and socialistic forms of government just do not work; that is why they continue to fall around the world. Must we learn from the school of hard knocks here, rather than the view of the world governments?


I think it was less than 20 years ago that communism fell in Romania, it is certainly going to take a long time to recover. A little off topic...I remember when so many people were adopting babies from Romania that had been placed in state run orphanages. I believe that birth control and abortion were illegal and there certainly wasn't a good support system to care for all those children. Thank goodness some found loving homes.

Being from a democratic country with some socialist programs like universal health care, I do think it can work. Fortunately my country also has regulated banking, and even tho our stock market is struggling like so many at this time, we have no need to bail our financial institutions out. I was reading about Iceland today and it sounds as if they are really struggling, there is no money available for anyone. Times are tough and I remember all the stories my dad and grandparents told me about growing up during The Great Depression.
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tyakoffs



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tee wrote
Quote:
After all, we deal with the Electoral College here . Popular vote matters only in each state.


Margret wrote
Quote:
I know our election was announced and over in 5 weeks, with only 2 debates and up to 5 parties at the debate table.


We have an electoral system that also distorts the popular vote. So that one party can win seats with a small percent of the popular vote if it is concentrated in one province, while another national party will not get any seats.

I don't know if it will make any American's feel better but while our election was fast as Margret said it was also our third election in about 5 years. (Help me fellow Canadian's if I've got that wrong.) And with a minority government we'll probably have another election in a couple of years or less. By the way, the most heated conversations I had during the Canadian election were with people who really wanted to be voting in your election. Laughing
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Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 882

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

And with a minority government we'll probably have another election in a couple of years or less.


groan Although I am happy it remained a minority gov't.
Quote:


By the way, the most heated conversations I had during the Canadian election were with people who really wanted to be voting in your election. :lol


A local restaurant is having a special next week...you can order the Obama platter or the McCain platter and they'll tally up the results. Sounds like fun, but if I invite my parents and my in-laws McCain'll get a lot of votes. I grew up in an independent but somewhat liberal leaning household, my dad was a big Trudeau fan (but, gasp, they like McCain/Palin), and my husband grew up with hard-core conservatives. We both turned out to be well adjusted liberals. Laughing Political discussions have been entertaining at family gatherings here.
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KathieO



Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
LizE wrote:
Interesting stuff here! KathieO, I enjoyed your post. The thing that strikes me, though, is that this liberal/conservative fiscal divide isn't really valid any more. I mean, we have a Republican president, and he and a good many of the Republican members of congress supported this bailout, which has drastically changed the entire landscape. It seems to me--and please, correct me if I'm wrong, I really hope I am--is that the labels of "conservative" and "liberal" don't apply any more, at least when it comes to nationalizing industries and what that will mean to us all as taxpayers.


LizE: After contemplating your response, for that particular analysis, I would agree. In a state of crisis (which it seems we have created for ourselves with the bailout), it can't remain a liberal/conservative issue. It's almost more like a "sink or swim"! After all, we are all in the same boat on that one when push comes to shove. We remain one nation. The loosening of the housing market to allow less than credit-worthy buyers to obtain a mortgage (which did start its bloom during the Clinton administration, and of couse Bush jumped on the bandwagon because, it looked "politically" good up through his reign to agree) . . . has come back to haunt us all. (Allowing "everyone" to own a home they just can't afford, just doesn't work!) This wasn't a surprise for many (certainly not IMO . . . remember, I'm a number cruncher as well as a pragmatist). Now both candidates (again, IMO) don't have much choice other than supporting the bailout, because they are BOTH sharp guys and know this one is not going away without real support (forget the political partyline)! Confidence in the country overall by the average citizen has taken a sharp dip (it originated in only the financial markets -- however, because of the usual fear of those who don't have extra knowledge, and our usual "henny penny media," it's predictably had time to cross all the sectors of the market and drag them down - right through to the rest of the world market; we do have a big influence . . .quite a responsibility). So, no, I think your right in believing that's not a liberal or convervative issue, so much as it's a factual "bankruptcy" kind of issue. We'd better get our act together on that one post-stat! Sad But what's to be done? As far as voting is concerned, we still only have two very ingrained party platforms to choose from!! The parties seem to "glue" their constituents into the same old molds, without much wiggle room. Tough for someone like me, I think -- ideas in free thinking and personal freedoms, yet business ideas based in realistic pluses and minues. Yikes!

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KathieO



Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone PLEASE educate me how the quoting thing works here?? Confused I can't seem to get it down! How do you get it so you can just quote "parts" of someone's post? Seems like I've tried it six-ways-to-Sunday, and still I suck! I'm either inside the quote box or the whole quote is outside without my post! AHHHH!
Kath
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4225
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KathieO wrote:
Can someone PLEASE educate me how the quoting thing works here?? Confused I can't seem to get it down! How do you get it so you can just quote "parts" of someone's post? Seems like I've tried it six-ways-to-Sunday, and still I suck! I'm either inside the quote box or the whole quote is outside without my post! AHHHH!

Most important, KathieO, is that whatever text is quoted, it has to be between certain commands. I hope I can explain this well to you. If not, and if someone else has great communication skills, please explain it so that it's understandable.

Okay, there are a couple of ways. You can highlight the text you don't want to be quoted and eliminate it, leaving only what you want to show. Preceding the text you want quoted should be the following command-- [quote="name of person" ]. Following the text, the command should be-- [/quote ]. Using these commands, you'll be able to include the name of the person you're quoting. (Note: there should be no spaces at all in the text from bracket to bracket. I had to put one in only for illustration; otherwise some of this paragraph would have appeared in a box.)

Another way is to eliminate everything except the text you want to show. Highlight it, then press "Quote" that appears in one of the boxes above when you're in the reply mode. The commands will automatically pop in. The disadvantage to this is that the person's name is not mentioned whom you're quoting and sometimes this can get confusing in follow-up messages. But you can always put in a name adding ="name" to the command in the first step I outlined or just reference the person's name somewhere else.

Now, did I thoroughly confuse you? Sometimes when a person does things so automatically, it's difficult to paint all the steps in a clear and concise manner.


Last edited by Tee on Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cora



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1129
Location: Bremen, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret wrote:

I think it was less than 20 years ago that communism fell in Romania, it is certainly going to take a long time to recover. A little off topic...I remember when so many people were adopting babies from Romania that had been placed in state run orphanages. I believe that birth control and abortion were illegal and there certainly wasn't a good support system to care for all those children. Thank goodness some found loving homes.


The Romanian brand of communism ended in the winter of 1989/1990, a couple of months after most other communist regimes fell (and more bloodily, unfortunately). And yes, abortion and birth control used to be illegal, which was uncommon, since most communist countries were more liberal on that front than western countries. However, the Romanian dictator believed that a high population growth would make his country strong.

I have some knowledge of Romania due to my job. I know people who have been doing business with the country since the early 1990s and who tell me how much the country has changed from extremely poor even by East European standards (compared to East Germany or Hungary) to not quite West European standard yet but getting there.
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="xina"]
Tee wrote:
LisaW wrote:
Yeah ... governing a state to its ruination is really hard work and requires a lot of executive know how.

That's harsh, LisaW. It's not as though Michigan is the only state in this predicament and as though our governor was the one that brought this whole economic turndown about. But, oh well, if you needed to say that, then so be it. I could have chosen any other state with approximately the same amount of population and still made my point; but I didn't. I could have named a state governed by a Republican, but chose my own state instead. Too bad you missed my original intent (or maybe you didn't and just distorted it).[/quote


Harsh, indeed. Well said Tee....your entire post. cheers, Wink



Harsh, maybe. Truth, definitely. Michigan has been governed by a democrat governor for how long? Shouldn't it be one of the absolute best states for working people instead of one of the worst in recession?

Yeah, Indiana is having problems. However, that's after 16 years of Democrat governors who took an $8bilion dollar surplus and turned it into an $8billion deficit. The current Republican Governor has stopped the bleeding. A lot of what he has done hasn't been popular with most of the Democrat leanings -- my favorite complaints is "he gave away the toll road!" I'd love to "give away" something for $4billion! And he actually rented it to a Spanish/Australian company who is charged with running it, collecting tolls, maintaining the highway while paying rent. And that $4billion was up front! So, what did the Governor do with this "windfall?" Find new projects to fund? Give more funding to old projects? No, like any good businessman, he retired debt and invested the principle -- stopping the paying of interest on loans while earning hundreds of millions of dollars in interest.

So -- harsh on Michigan? Yeah .. but, right now, it appears to be a harsh land to earn a living in.
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Laura V



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 302
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:
Yeah, Indiana is having problems. However, that's after 16 years of Democrat governors who took an $8bilion dollar surplus and turned it into an $8billion deficit.
On the other hand, "President Bush inherited a budget surplus of $128 billion when he took office in 2001 but has since posted a budget deficit every year" so now there's a "record $482 billion deficit the White House [has] predicted for the 2009 budget year" (CNN).
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4225
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:
Michigan has been governed by a democrat governor for how long? Shouldn't it be one of the absolute best states for working people instead of one of the worst in recession?

Uh, excuse me--but have we been seeing the down arrows on Wall Street recently? I think there are a few more factors that may figure into Michigan's economy, as well as many other states now too, and probably all of them eventually. One Democratic governor, no matter how fabulous she is, does not wield that much power when dealing with forces beyond her control globally!


Last edited by Tee on Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tee wrote:
LisaW wrote:
Michigan has been governed by a democrat governor for how long? Shouldn't it be one of the absolute best states for working people instead of one of the worst in recession?

Uh, excuse me--but have we been seeing the down arrows on Wall Street recently? I think there are a few more factors that may figure into Michigan's economy, as well as many other states now too, and probably all of them eventually. One Democratic governor, no matter how fabulous she is, does not yield that much power when dealing with forces beyond her control globally!



Apparently LisaW overlooks that pesky detail in her posts. Those numbers on Wall Street...who's fault are they. I remember....the last election when George Bush was voted in for another term and I thought in my lmind..."I hope you all enjoy your choice." And hasn't it been fun?? Bill Maher who sometimes bothers me got right to the point when he said.."George Bush won't be happy until he's walking away from the White House while it's in flames in the background."
Let's hope for the best on Nov. 4th.
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xina wrote:
Tee wrote:
LisaW wrote:
Michigan has been governed by a democrat governor for how long? Shouldn't it be one of the absolute best states for working people instead of one of the worst in recession?

Uh, excuse me--but have we been seeing the down arrows on Wall Street recently? I think there are a few more factors that may figure into Michigan's economy, as well as many other states now too, and probably all of them eventually. One Democratic governor, no matter how fabulous she is, does not yield that much power when dealing with forces beyond her control globally!



Apparently LisaW overlooks that pesky detail in her posts. Those numbers on Wall Street...who's fault are they. I remember....the last election when George Bush was voted in for another term and I thought in my lmind..."I hope you all enjoy your choice." And hasn't it been fun?? Bill Maher who sometimes bothers me got right to the point when he said.."George Bush won't be happy until he's walking away from the White House while it's in flames in the background."
Let's hope for the best on Nov. 4th.


Uh, apparently Xina, etal, are still on the "George W Bush is the cause of all evil." First off, the Democrats have had complete control for the last two years of the W's "reign." What have they done? Well, Barnie Franks and his fwiends all declared "Fannie Mae and Fweddie Mac are just fine! They are strong, they need no oversight! Oh, and while we're at it ... we want evwree one to have a house. A big house. Lots of house. So what if they can't pay for it?" And so, as loans were made (in fact, banks were told "You have to make the loans or you will be punished!") and quickly so off to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- while all those good Dems who were the Execs of Fannie and Freddie voted themselves big ol' bonuses, giving money to politicians (and, yeah, John McCain got money -- but the biggest recipient was Barack Obama -- and he'd only spent about about 3 years in the Senate). So, now, the excrement hits the rotary device. George W, John McCain, Mike Pence (Republicans all) starting calling for reining in Freddie and Fannie in 2002/2003 -- and the Dems were having none of it.

But, hey, you just keep thinking if Barack gets in, a super majority in the Senate and majority in the House, things will just be so hunky, dunky dory. Last time that setup happened was during the Jimmy Carter Administration. I lived through that ... I'd just as soon not see that happen again. If you're not familiar with it -- taxes were high as was unemployment, interest rates for homes, cars, etc., through the roof. The economy almost came to a standstill. It took Reagan and massive tax cuts (uh, the same thing John F Kennedy did gasp) to kick start the economy.

Bill Clinton had a similar set up -- until the first 2 years of his administration was a fiasco -- and in 1994, Newt Gringrich and company roared into town. That's what kept the Clinton years from being a complete fiasco, too.
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Mark



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1390

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going to make comparisons, be realistic.
Michigan is the 8th most populous U.S. state.
The automobile industry is a major part of the Michigan economy, so auto industry troubles have huge impacts, but there is still a lot of other industry in the state. In fact, if you actually read about the state recent policies promote business & industry.
Granholm has been Governor since 1/1/2003.
Alaska is the 47th most populous U.S. state.
The oil & gas industry is THE biggie in Alaska, supplying 4/5 of the state's revenue, with Federal subsidies as another big source. Most residents of Alaska get annual handouts from the oil & gas profits. Alaska sounds like hog heaven for pork-barrel politics. Since oil & gas are non-renewable resources, unlike manufacturing industries, pushing for more oil & gas drilling will just make the resources run out faster and pollute more.
Palin has been Governor since 12/4/2006 (less than 2 years experience).
As for do-nothings, Congress was under Republican control for 14 years, and the Democratic majority of the last two years has not been enough to get much passed over Republican blocking in the Senate and veto threats & vetoes by W.
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4225
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Mark, for such a great quickie comparison between the states. You ARE the man with the statistics; that's for sure. You nailed what I was trying to get across originally when I first brought up Michigan at all. It really could have been most any other state; but I was comfortable using my own, at that point.

LisaW, I think you have some great thoughts and are very fervent in your responses. However, the manner in which you convey them actually makes me want to assume a direct opposite viewpoint from yours. I know that's not your intention; but it's difficult for one to remain open-minded to differing opinions when posts are written that way. I can almost see your finger jabbing at me thru the screen.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tee wrote:


LisaW, I think you have some great thoughts and are very fervent in your responses. However, the manner in which you convey them actually makes me want to assume a direct opposite viewpoint from yours. I know that's not your intention; but it's difficult for one to remain open-minded to differing opinions when posts are written that way. I can almost see your finger jabbing at me thru the screen.




Wink It's kind of like watching the Fox News Channel with the sound off....
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