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The vice presidential debate...
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4223
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

Regarding the vice presidential debate of yesterday, I have many thoughts; but heading the list is, why isn't Biden the presidential candidate? I felt he came across as calm, but knowledgeable. Loved the fact that for once he wasn't long-winded and actually had a stopping point in his answers. Of course, he had to do that because of time constraints for the debate. I found myself feeling very comfortable with him and his responses.

Now, that makes me question just how valuable the primary campaigns are, after all, in getting to know the candidates. And how much do we turn away from many of them because of being overwhelmed? Who knows?

As an aside, I felt Palin did well enough, but showed her inexperience in some fields, as was expected. But she held her own and it made for quite a quick 90 minutes.
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Kass



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if you got to see the debate. I heard it on NPR. I think that Palin should enter beauty pageants. She has the ability to seem charming and cute while saying nothing at all. She shouldn't get anywhere near the White House, of course.

What a truly annoying voice she has! I think of all four candidates hers is the worst.

She's a political platitude machine.

Biden was truly impressive. I didn't ever think much of him, but after his work in this "debate," I have to say he's really sharp and smart. He actually answered the questions he was asked, unlike Palin. He answered them well, unlike Palin. I was already going to vote that way, of course, but I feel much better voting for Obama knowing his running mate is also a good person for the job.

I'm amazed anyone has anything good to say about her performance. She was largely inarticulate. NPR talking heads like Mara Liasson and Linda Wertheimer should know better. She sounded completely scatterbrained. If the only criterion for doing well in a political debate is "always coming up with stuff to say," that's pretty pathetic.
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Sandlynn



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the only criterion for doing well in a political debate is "always coming up with stuff to say," that's pretty pathetic.


I think this demonstrates exactly what we got last night from Palin:



To me, she came off as a caricature of herself, if that's possible. I'm sure she was being the "real" Sarah and some people like that. But since she can't be coached, in this short time, to be a serious candidate who's familiar with all the issues, they are having her fall back on her "awshucks charm" and "average six-pack Joe Americaness" even emphasizing it to the point of parody. She's doing a better impression of Tina Fey doing Sarah Palin, than Fey does.
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KayWebbHarrison



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first memories of Joe Biden are from the Summer of 1973. He was on the Senate (or House) committee that conducted the Watergate investigation. My impression of Biden has been favorable ever since. I was thrilled when Obama chose Biden for his running mate.

Palin redeemed herself in the debate because she didn't make any egregious mistakes, at least in the eyes of the Republican "base." She certainly did not impress me, and I doubt that she won over many independents. Superficially, she did present herself well, but she lacked SUBSTANCE. IMO, she CHEATED by not answering many of the questions she was asked. Gwen Ifill (sp?) should have reined her in and required that Palin respond to the questions asked.

Kay
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KayWebbHarrison wrote:
IMO, she CHEATED by not answering many of the questions she was asked. Gwen Ifill (sp?) should have reined her in and required that Palin respond to the questions asked.

Agree. She bounced back far too many times on Wasilla and being governor of Alaska, which, let's face it, just does not have that many people in the WHOLE state as some of our larger cities do. But that's her experience, so what else could have been expected really? But she should have been brought back to the question at hand and asked to stay "on topic." Gee, that sounds familiar (as we sometimes have a way of doing here on the boards).

Biden totally impressed me and I'm sorry I didn't pay more attention to him in the primaries. But, of course, I live in Michigan where the primary that was, wasn't, really. I'm still a bit shaky with Obama, but yesterday's performance may have helped it a lot. My son has been telling me from Day One that Biden was the best of them all, being as honest as any politician is capable of being (not sure exactly what I'm saying here) and that he was very knowledgeable. Combine that with a keen sense of humor, and he thought he should have gotten the nod. As with you, he was delighted when Obama announced him as VP.

To Kass and Sandlynn--
One of the comedians on late night TV said he personally preferred the Tina Fey version over the real thing. Sounds as though both of you may have agreed with him.
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Jane G



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tina Fey as Sarah Palin is all the comedy, but none of the scariness.

I missed the first half hour of the debate, but it was clear Biden knew what he was talking about, knew the issues, knew the facts, and had the credentials and experience to back it all up. Palin did not. She wasn't awful, but of course she was going to be seen as having done well when all we really have of her lately are interviews that are, for me, painful to watch. A few times she seemed outright defensive and cornered, even though Biden didn't rail into her as hard as he could have.

If she accomplished anything, it would be to get the far right back in her favor... but I would be surprised if she won any independents over to that ticket.
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jane G wrote:
... but I would be surprised if she won any independents over to that ticket.

Yes, that thought appears to be backed up by some polls that were post debate. I never considered myself an independent; but I was very, very shaky with Obama. Just something about some of the things he's for that bothers me a bit. Sometimes, it's just not knowing his thoughts about things that's a bother. On the other hand, there's no solace for me in the McCain strategies, either. Where I agree with him, I totally disagree in the other major areas.

So, Biden went a long way for me in thinking that this ticket may be stronger than I originally thought. If he, with what integrity he apparently has, feels comfortable enough to be vice president on the Democratic ticket, that may have been what I needed to confirm the way I was probably going to vote anyway. My only other option would have been to refrain from voting for the specific office of President; but how lame is that, really?
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

Tee wrote:
Regarding the vice presidential debate of yesterday, I have many thoughts; but heading the list is, why isn't Biden the presidential candidate?


Because every time he's run in a primary (including this one), he hasn't gotten anywhere near enough votes to be considered. Add on he's known as being able to put his foot in his mouth frequently because he doesn't appear to think (or maybe know?) before opening his mouth. For those of you who don't know (although, I don't think Joe reads this) -- FDR wasn't president in 1929 and the only TVs were those in research labs (BIDEN: Part of what a leader does is to instill confidence, to demonstrate that he or she knows what they're talking about and communicates to people. If you listen to me and follow what I'm suggesting, we can fix this. Stock market crash, Franklin Roosevelt got on television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed, he said, "Look, here's what happened." ); Missouri senator Chuck Graham can't "stand up" (BIDEN: Uh, uh, Chuck Graham, state senator, is here. Stand up, Chuck. Let 'em see you. Oh, God love you. What am I talking about? I tell you what, you're making everybody else stand up, though, pal. I tell you what, stand up for Chuck.); and even Biden doesn't think he should be there (BIDEN: Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Let's get that straight. She's a truly close personal friend. She is qualified to be president of the United States of America. She's easily qualified to be vice president of the United States of America, and, quite frankly, might have been a better pick than me. But she's first rate. )

Of course, Biden is in good company as Barack Obama said in Oregon: Barack Obama, as NewsBusters John Stephenson reported, told an Oregon audience that "I've been in 57 states, (with) I think one left to go. Hey, not knowing the number of states in the USA isn't anywhere near as bad as misspelling "potato", eh?

If Sarah Palin was so very unprepared for the debate and for the VP slot, and Joe Biden has all these years of experience, he should have completely cleaned Palin's plate. He didn't. Not much of a "win" in his slot.
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:
If Sarah Palin was so very unprepared for the debate and for the VP slot, and Joe Biden has all these years of experience, he should have completely cleaned Palin's plate. He didn't. Not much of a "win" in his slot.

Well, Palin was prepared for the debate, but in the way they wanted her to be. She did sidestep quite a few questions and kept muttering, "but this is the issue I REALLY want to talk about," then proceed to change the focus of the question. Biden answered his questions; Palin didn't always. Well, that at least shows she's a true politician, though, doesn't it? Knows how to evade.

Also, Biden did seem quite controlled and reserved from how he can be, I think. Probably done purposely, because then it would look as though he'd taken advantage of someone who doesn't necessarily know the inside tracks of Washington. So, in this case, he too acted like a true politician. Knows how to play the ropes in his favor.

No matter, I was very impressed with Biden; and if there wouldn't have been the amount of people running in the Democratic primaries to begin with, maybe some of this would have come out sooner for those of us who thought everything about the election began too soon. I think I sort of miss the old roll calls and fights on the floor of the convention arenas and sometimes we still didn't know until Wed of that week who would be the candidate for president. Vice president wasn't announced until the following day. After the candidates were pretty much in the bag this time because of the primaries, we were still finding out things about them that could have changed our minds about who we'd like to see run.
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marilyn



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

I also did not have an opinion of Biden, so his performance in the debate was pivotal to my impressions of him.

Wow. He gave detailed answers that showed a depth of understanding, and he demonstrated good-natured tolerance for his opponent and deferential respect for the moderator Gwen Ifill. I came away thinking that, in romancelandia, Biden played a worthy Rhett Butler to Palin's Scarlett O'Hara act.

Conventional wisdom says we pick for president someone we'd like to have a beer with, but I'd like to pick someone I trust to raise my children; I think that says more about judgment and character. Of these two, Biden wins by a landslide.

The other stuff? TVs instead of radio, 57 instead of 47 or whatever? Slipups happen, and you can see where they were going with their comments. To try to score political points on such innocuous misstatements is to go down the road of silliness at the absolute wrong time in our nation's history.
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Jane G



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Conventional wisdom says we pick for president someone we'd like to have a beer with, but I'd like to pick someone I trust to raise my children; I think that says more about judgment and character. Of these two, Biden wins by a landslide.


I really like that standard-- I think it says a lot, lot more about a person than if you'd want to go out and have a beer with them. And I agree, Biden beats Palin in this regard (not that I have a child, but, well, hypothetically), and Obama beats McCain for me, too.
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LisaW



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

marilyn wrote:


The other stuff? TVs instead of radio, 57 instead of 47 or whatever? Slipups happen, and you can see where they were going with their comments. To try to score political points on such innocuous misstatements is to go down the road of silliness at the absolute wrong time in our nation's history.


That is complete and utter Bull! Change Obama's "57 states" slip up to George Bush or John McCain and we'd still be seeing in print and hearing on the news broadcasts and seeing Leno and Letterman how "stupid" they are. Change that 1929 and FDR comment to Palin? Everyone, including you, would only be saying how "unprepared" she is for life, let alone being VP.

Remember how Dan Quayle was chewed up over "potato" vs "potatoe?" And all he did was trust in the moronic cue card he was given. That little "slip up" is still being used as classic "gee, see how STOOPID the Republicans are." Being "stupid" the new progressive's cry of dismissal.
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marilyn



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:


That is complete and utter Bull! Change Obama's "57 states" slip up to George Bush or John McCain and we'd still be seeing in print and hearing on the news broadcasts and seeing Leno and Letterman how "stupid" they are. Change that 1929 and FDR comment to Palin? Everyone, including you, would only be saying how "unprepared" she is for life, let alone being VP.

... Being "stupid" the new progressive's cry of dismissal.


Um, no. ... If you could bring it down a notch and ask first instead of attacking, I could honestly assure that Palin and McCain - heck, even Dan Quayle - deserve just as much a pass on these insubstantial points. In fact, you'll note in my entry I didn't raise any such silliness.
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LizE



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:
Remember how Dan Quayle was chewed up over "potato" vs "potatoe?" And all he did was trust in the moronic cue card he was given. That little "slip up" is still being used as classic "gee, see how STOOPID the Republicans are." Being "stupid" the new progressive's cry of dismissal.


I always thought Dan Quayle got a raw deal on the potato issue. But gosh darn it, that's just looking to the past. Say it aint' so, Joe!

Biden, love him or hate him, has years of experience by which he can and should be judged. He came off as far more knowledgeable than Palin on the issues (no great trick, considering). Personally, I thought he did "clean her plate," but remember, he couldn't be too hard on her, he couldn't appear intimidating or condescending--in other words, he couldn't debate her as he would an equal. In what passes for election logic, treating her like any other (male) opponent would have made him look sexist. But he rose to the challenge and in the end, by forcing him to go after McCain, it was a good thing.

As for Palin, you've got to admit that her super-simplistic, Joe Sixpack-Hockey Mom take on complex issues doesn't make her appear terribly intelligent. Then again, it could all be an act and she's really an intellectual giant who's just messing with our heads. Frankly, I'm not sure which I'd prefer. It's pretty scary to think she might just be parroting lines she was given without understanding what they mean--but if she truly believes the things she says, she's downright terrifying.
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LisaW



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: The vice presidential debate... Reply with quote

[quote="LizE"]
LisaW wrote:

Biden, love him or hate him, has years of experience by which he can and should be judged. He came off as far more knowledgeable than Palin on the issues (no great trick, considering). Personally, I thought he did "clean her plate," but remember, he couldn't be too hard on her, he couldn't appear intimidating or condescending--in other words, he couldn't debate her as he would an equal. In what passes for election logic, treating her like any other (male) opponent would have made him look sexist. But he rose to the challenge and in the end, by forcing him to go after McCain, it was a good thing.

As for Palin, you've got to admit that her super-simplistic, Joe Sixpack-Hockey Mom take on complex issues doesn't make her appear terribly intelligent. Then again, it could all be an act and she's really an intellectual giant who's just messing with our heads. Frankly, I'm not sure which I'd prefer. It's pretty scary to think she might just be parroting lines she was given without understanding what they mean--but if she truly believes the things she says, she's downright terrifying.


You could only consider "Biden cleaned her plate" if you ignore that fact that, although it all flowed glibly off his tongue, a lot of what Joe said was not factual.

He mentioned "going to Katie's restaurant or walking into Home Depot with me where I spend a lot of time" -- Katie's closed 20 years ago and there is no evidence he spends much time in Home Depot.

Oh, and when did "we ... along with France ... kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon?" Hezbollah is still there. France can't even control what's going on within their own country.

And when he said: "I said and Barack said, 'Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't, Hezbollah will control it.'" Uh, Joe, Lebanon ain't part of NATO. No NATO troops in there. Rolling Eyes

Joe's not real knowledgeable about foreign policy, is he?

And, Joe denied Obama ever said he'd sit down and talk with the Iranian President without preconditions. Obviously, Joe's no better at using computers than McCain, since there are video clips all over the place where Obama is saying just that. It's just so much funnier that McCain can't use the computer because of his injuries from the Hanoi Hilton. yuck yuck. And, forget the clips, Joe ought to remember Obama saying that during one of the primary debates ... Joe was there and said, "Would I make a blanket commitment to meet unconditionally with the leaders of each of those countries within the first year I was elected president? Absolutely, positively, no." Joe's not real good at remembering stuff.

One has to wonder if Biden understands the role of the VP ... it's not just one step closer being a "President in waiting" than being one of the 100 current PIW ... Joe said VP Cheney held a "dangerous" belief that "he's part of the legislative branch." Joe actually cited Article I of the Constitution as proof that Cheney "works in the executive branch" and has "no authority relative to the Congress." Joe added: "He should understand that. Everyone should understand that." Uh, extra points to any one who can tell us just where Joe was wrong about the VP's role. Joe's not real good on the Constitution.

Before you believe Joe's "clear thinking and remarks" about Afghanistan, he said, "With Afghanistan, facts matter, Gwen. ... We spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country." Yeah, we're spending a lot on those wars, but it's still cheaper fighting them there than here in our shopping malls -- just ask Israel, or hey, ask France how the car burnings are going. Uh, Joe? According to the Congressional Research Service, the most that has been spent per week was in 2008 at $3billion. Soooo ... 3 x 3 = $9Billion, except it's more like $172 billion in Afghanistan. Joe's not real good at math.

Oh, and then Joe said, "John McCain voted against a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty that every Republican has supported." Really? Wow. Uh, Joe, last vote on a nuclear test ban treaty in the Senate was the one Clinton signed in 1994. Oops! From the New York Times: "Last week, Senate Republicans thundered 'no' to the nuclear test ban treaty, handing the White House its biggest defeat since health care in 1994." Forty-nine Republicans voted against the treaty; only four liberal Republicans voted for it.

And, no, I don't have to see Sarah's approach makes her appear "less intelligent." However, seeing voters fall for Joe Biden's goofs and thinking it makes him a top candidate (uh, there are real reasons Joe's never made it to the top slot, even though he's been trying since 1988), makes me see those voters and well as those politicians as "not so bright."
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