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trivias and references in romance novels
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Schola



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xina wrote:

Teddy bear, teddy bear turn around
Teddy bear, teddy bear touch the ground
Teddy bear, teddy bear, show your shoes
Teddy bear, teddy bear, read the news.
Teddy bear, teddy bear, turn off the light
Teddy bear, teddy bear, Say goodnight.


I seem to remember another couplet . . .

Teddy bear, teddy bear, walk upstairs
Teddy bear, teddy bear, say your prayers.

Very Happy
_________________
"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton)
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Lynda X



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1474

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think girls jump rope to "Ring Around the Rosy," but they dance, holding hands, in a circle and end with everybody falling to the ground. Its history is fascinating as a rhyme about the Black Death. It goes, "Ring around the rosy/ Pocket full of posies/ A-cha, a-cha/ All fall down."


A ring around the rosy was an plague sore; posies were used to protect you from "bad air" that caused the plague, a-cha, a-cha was the death rattle (the air expelled from the lungs after someone dies gives a peculiar sound), and all fall down certainly is certainly not a very optimistic end.

The other common remnant that has come down from the plague is a mother (or father) kissing a kid's scratch, called a boo boo to make it all better. Boo boo is the misspelling of buboe, the plague sore. It is both sad and chilling to think of all the parents who kissed their kids' plague sores, in desperate hope that they would make them better, a practice that has come down today but thankfully, used on scratches, not plague sores.
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Joanna Bourne



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Jumping rhymes and children's songs Reply with quote

[quote="msaggie"]
JaneO wrote:
. Makes me think of the rhyme Annique in Joanna Bourne's The Spymaster's Lady quotes that children sang during the French Terror "Let the gutters flow with the blood of the aristocrats, let us wash our hands in their entrails, let all who stand aginst the voice of the people perish like rats.." which is more bloodthirsty. I wonder if the author made up that little jingle, or if French children really sang songs like that?


I did make up that particular jinglem but it's typical of the times.
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Nana



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 948

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynda X wrote:
I don't think girls jump rope to "Ring Around the Rosy," but they dance, holding hands, in a circle and end with everybody falling to the ground. Its history is fascinating as a rhyme about the Black Death. It goes, "Ring around the rosy/ Pocket full of posies/ A-cha, a-cha/ All fall down."
.


Alas for this... although it is a really great story, it is probably an urban legend. You can check it out at www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosi e.htm

I wish it were true, though. I would have used it to teach my middle schoolers this year. I ran into the same problem with "follow the Drinking Gourd" which contrary to popular opinion and textbooks is probably also a fake.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember another couplet . . .

Teddy bear, teddy bear, walk upstairs
Teddy bear, teddy bear, say your prayers.

Very Happy[/quote]


Yes, I remember that too Schola!
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Elizabeth Rolls



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1086
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I did make up that particular jinglem but it's typical of the times.


Seemed to fit right in to me, Joanna. Thanks for clarifying it. When I read it I immediately thought of La Marseillaise, and like Maggie wondered if it was something you'd found or invented. I resisted the temptation to go looking for a reference!

Elizabeth
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veasleyd1



Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2064

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nana wrote:


Oh, you can't chop your mother up in Massachusetts
[snipped]


I have a suspicion that this version was from the days of my youth, though (someone like Tom Lehrer or the Kingston Trio, maybe?) rather than a child's rhyme.

Which does not, of course, mean that children aren't bloodthirsty. There's always:

Little Bunny Frou-Frou
Hopping through the forest
Picking up the field mice,
Bopping them on the head.

I will be happy to render the remainder of the verses upon request Smile
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Lynda X



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1474

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nana, you may be absolutely right that the information I've read about "Ring Around the Rosy" is inaccurate--that it is NOT from the plague years, or at least a comment about the plague, but when I googled it, a lot of articles interpreting it the same way O had remembered popped up, with some that didn't agree. I am willing to bet the farm (especially since I don't own one!) though that "kissing the boo-boo" is a corruption of buboe. I'd teach it to the kids anyway, with the history lesson that some people don't believe it and why. By the way, I clicked on your source, and nothing came up, and when I went to them, I couldn't find anything. I must be cursed.

PS Have you read that Humpty Dumpty was about Charles I? Interesting, huh?
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> A ring around the rosy was an plague sore; posies were used to >protect you from "bad air" that caused the plague, a-cha, a-cha was the >death rattle (the air expelled from the lungs after someone dies gives a >peculiar sound), and all fall down certainly is certainly not a very >optimistic end.

I heard that the ring around the rosie was a round rose colored discoloration on the skin, when you saw this you knew someone had the plague. Posies were bundles of medicinal herbs and they thought smelling them would help heal them. And I heard it was tishoo tishoo you all fall down, because sneezing (tishoo) was the first sign of the plague and that is how the custom, god bless you came about, because if you sneezed, people said, god bless you, as if to say, hope you just have a cold and aren't getting the plague. Also it was said that people who ate garlic didn't catch the plague. I don't think kissing a booboo has anything to do with buboes, a buboe is not a cut or sore, a buboe is the swelling of the lymph glands that occurred when had the plague, Buboes occurred in the areas where the are a lot of lymph glands, the groin area, the armpits. I don't think people kissed buboes to make them better. Sounds farfetched.
Bit of a goofy area to be kissing someone.
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> a-cha, a-cha was the death rattle (the air expelled from the lungs >after someone dies gives a peculiar sound), and all fall down certainly is >certainly not a very optimistic end.

I don't think it could possibly refer to the death rattle,

a-cha a-cha, we all fall down???

If someone has the death rattle, they are dying on their back and not standing up, therefore they couldn't fall down. One wouldn't have the energy to be standing up a long time before the death rattle occurred.
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>The other common remnant that has come down from the plague is a >mother (or father) kissing a kid's scratch, called a boo boo to make it >all better. Boo boo is the misspelling of buboe, the plague sore.

Just did a websearch to double check because it's been a few years since I read about the plague (and I read a lot about the topic).
A buboe is a swelling in the groin, that is the predominant area that the buboe (lymph glands swelling) would be when one had the plague and the greek word for groin is very similar to the word buboe. So I don't think parent's were kissing their kids buboes when they had the plague!!! Gosh I sure hope not!! Rolling Eyes Shocked
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bamagirl



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 132
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just did a websearch to double check because it's been a few years since I read about the plague (and I read a lot about the topic).
A buboe is a swelling in the groin, that is the predominant area that the buboe (lymph glands swelling) would be when one had the plague and the greek word for groin is very similar to the word buboe. So I don't think parent's were kissing their kids buboes when they had the plague!!! Gosh I sure hope not!!


Yes...but the plague sores could rise anywhere lymph glands were - the bend of an arm for example. Anyway, I think that it's a touching ondit. Afterall, I kissed a boo boo on a toe yesterday.


Quote:
PS Have you read that Humpty Dumpty was about Charles I? Interesting, huh?


I read somewhere that Humpty Dumpty was a cannon used to guard an English city during the English Civil War. The cannon was destroyed and the city fell (as well as the story about Charles I).

It all makes for interesting reading. Smile
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Yes...but the plague sores could rise anywhere lymph glands were - the >bend of an arm for example. Anyway, I think that it's a touching ondit. >Afterall, I kissed a boo boo on a toe yesterday.

What literature can you quote so I can look up whether what you say has any truth??? I don't buy it.
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must say anyone who wanted to kiss a plague sore had to be sick in the head.
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It amazes me how this rumor that a buboe is a plague sore is on several websites on the internet. If people would just stop to read a book or look in a dictionary to PROVE something before spreading around an ignorant opinion, then people would be more intelligent.
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