AAR
Click here for full forums index
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 
Porn Vs Romance
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> Romance Potpourri Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lynda X



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1410

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Porn Vs Romance Reply with quote

I just finished listening to Martin Amis talk about the terrible effects of porn on human nature.
(http://www.slate.com/articles/video/conversations_with_slate/2012/08/martin_amis_on_how_porn_is_changing_sexuality_and_human_nature_video_.html)

He believes that now porn is affecting how males and females get together sexually and that it has destroyed spontaneity and innocence. He went on to say that because porn is always misogynistic, it hurts women, and that it ultimately separates love and sex. He also believes that once this change happens with humans that it will be impossible to unite love and sex.

Naturally, I began to think about the charge leveled at romance books that they are just porn for women. His comments refute this belief because most romances do not show women in degraded or powerless situations with men and the whole point of every single romance I've read and ever heard about is the unification of sex and love. I think Amis is too pessimistic; IMO sex and love are naturally allies, and that although you can have one without the other, one brings out the other.

So, what do you think? Is there a difference between the sex in romances and the sex in porn, even porn aimed at women?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the difference between porn and romance that contains graphic sexual encounters is the emotional connection of the couple as well as the reader. But then I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with porn either unless someone is using it in an unhealthy way or in a way that's detrimental to their relationship. That can be true for many things. The existence of porn does not negate the existence of love, I think love is at the heart of all of us, along with the sex drive. This sounds a bit like 'the sky is falling' kind of extreme attitude that people get carried away with. IMHO and all that!

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jaime



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Constant exposure to porn can be pretty damaging - note the studies done on sex addicts whose "gateway" to their addiction can be the easily available internet porn on sites like youporn.

However, there is a big difference between pornography and erotica.

I don't think the erotic content in your average hot romance would be damaging to any reader. Other than maybe make it harder for the female reader to be turned on by some real life guy with a bald spot, a beer belly and very average dangly bits after being exposed to all those descriptions of washboard abs and super-penises in romance fiction. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maggie AAR
Site Admin


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 2427

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaime wrote:


I don't think the erotic content in your average hot romance would be damaging to any reader. Other than maybe make it harder for the female reader to be turned on by some real life guy with a bald spot, a beer belly and very average dangly bits after being exposed to all those descriptions of washboard abs and super-penises in romance fiction. Very Happy


Actualy, that is one of the accusations against porn that I have heard. Typically, it is a husband seeing porn sees all these young, nubile women and compares them to his wife who works all week, takes care of the kids, and has 20+ too many pounds on her. The porn strips away the relationship he has built and increases the urge to just look at the women as a provider of sex, making the value in his partner be how hot, lovely and ready to go she is. Studies have shown this as a factor in divorce.

Do I think romance novels are a danger to marriages? No. The HEA is all about being together forever and finding a soul mate. But I have read the arguments before and what you listed above was one of them. Couldn't help but point it out Twisted Evil

maggie b.
_________________
http://maggiebbooksandteas.blogspot.com
She is too fond of books and it has turned her brain. - Louisa May Alcott
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2477

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think romance fiction, in general, is pornographic; its purpose is different. But, if the purpose of pornography is to titillate, I do think that some sex scenes in romance fiction are intended to titillate and are thus pornographic. At the same time, I don't see pornography as particularly harmful, for it soon becomes boring, as do many of the titillating passages in romance fiction. The only harm is a possible broken jaw from the wide yawns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4210
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
At the same time, I don't see pornography as particularly harmful, for it soon becomes boring, as do many of the titillating passages in romance fiction. The only harm is a possible broken jaw from the wide yawns.

Agree. Just as with some addicting drugs (not all), the body is not satisfied with the original dosage and needs more of it in order to feel that sense of euphoria. And so it has been found with pornography. The body becomes desensitized to what was once titillating and needs more of the extreme in order to be stimulated. We don't need studies to convince us of this; we know it from past experience in our viewing and reading lives. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is such a good question!

My Opinion is Porn/Eroctica/Romance like art is in the eye of the beholder. What I call porn you might call something else our bars might be set at different levels, and I am alright with that.

I also think that porn, romance, video games, drugs, gambling, anything that takes a person out of living in the present and places them living in a fantasy world for too much of their waking hours is very harmful. Some people shop to feel better and not deal and that is harmful. Damaged people find ways to hurt themselves.

What I think porn is lacking that eroctica and romance offer is Love, most porn is about lust and a moment, where romance and eroctica usually have eleminates of Love as part of the story. I think porn has it's place and I think have no problem with it. I like romances because they are just HEA endings that make me feel good that the story ended well and when I close the book I might wish to know what happened next but I am not thinking about any tragic story that hurt to read and left me feeling like the world is F-ed up. Romance has a power to feed my soul, to remind me that life is about love and to grab ahold of my hero and rock his world at every oppertunity. Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JaneO



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I am about to place myself squarely among the uncool or unsophisticated or whatever un-group you like.

What is wrong with porn, whether designed for men or for women, is that it reduces the other sex to nothing more than a thing, an object to be used for pleasure. It dehumanizes them.

This is degrading for both the user and the usee (if there is such a word).

It is the same problem there is with slavery: it reduces people to things. That is the only way the user can be comfortable in making use of the others.

I cannot see anything that exploits people in this way as anything other than abhorrent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lynda X



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1410

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porn is not an easy topic because, frankly, I'm divided about it. On one hand, I suspect that lots of the objections to porn are really just objections to sex and pleasure. On the other hand, those people who say that porn is not a problem seem to me to be dismissive. They believe that seeing and read porn has no effect, but somehow, reading or seeing Nazi and other extreme political material does. Most adults would agree that anything done to excess is a problem and probably an addiction. Even those people who are in favor of easy access to porn probably are uncomfortable with kids accessing it, but are fuzzy about why, exactly. In the past, porn was rare and, if not illegal, at least suspect. It's only in the past 50-60 years has porn been easily obtained and with the internet, by younger and younger people. I cannot believe that this change is for the good. Certainly, there has been an apparent explosion in pedophilia and other abnormal sexual practice. That's not surprising, given as people have pointed out, our ability to get bored with even pleasure and to demand more and more.

I would argue that romances do not separate the person from love or sexuality; they show a couple's sexuality bringing them closer together. Even sexual practices that in the past were seen an perversions (I'm thinking of bondage and S&M here), are portrayed as acceptable because of the romance and caring between the couples. I think that's probably a good thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
PWNN



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 911

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>Certainly, there has been an apparent explosion in pedophilia and other abnormal sexual practice.<<

There has been an explosion in the reporting of pedophilia just as there has in all rape. These are crimes that have always been around but had been under reported and swept under the rug as shameful for the victim and too unsavory a subject for decent public discussion. There was a time newspapers wouldn't even report these crimes because they didn't want to upset their readers.

None of that means the crimes didn't exist in fairly significant numbers. Some of the largest recorded pedophile scandals happened when people couldn't buy porn legally and books were regularly banned for any sexual content. The cases against the Boston & Philadelphia Archdioceses went back to the 1950s. To believe that there weren't even earlier incidents that went unreported because victims had aged or died out would be naive.

During the publicly prudish Victorian age every 6th house in London was a whorehouse, which catered to every sexual taste or perversion - including pedophilia. Read Caleb Carr's novel The Alienist to see how turn of the century lower NYC with it's influx of immigration, crowded housing and poverty was a hotbed of exploited, abused, missing and murdered children that never went publicly reported by the press.

When it comes down to it I don't think emotionally, sexually or criminally there's anything new under the sun.
_________________
"My safe word is monkey"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PWNN wrote:


There has been an explosion in the reporting of pedophilia just as there has in all rape. These are crimes that have always been around but had been under reported and swept under the rug as shameful for the victim and too unsavory a subject for decent public discussion. There was a time newspapers wouldn't even report these crimes because they didn't want to upset their readers.
.


We also now have the ability to know when a pedophilia is living in our community, which has never in the history of man be available to society.

I also want to make the point that what one person calls porn another might based on their personal beliefs call something else. Like beauty isn't porn in the eyes of the beholder?? The media calls Fifty Shades of Gray Mommy Porn, and they must be crazy. It isn't porn, not even close, IMO. It is romance, not much different then the romances I read when I was a teenager. NO there wasn't any BDSM in those books of my youth, but sex is sex. If I take the question in it's black and white and ignore all the gray area, I say sex between consenting adults shouldn't be made illegal to watch or sell. And shouldn't be available to children, as we don't allow them purchase a ticket to an R rated movie. No need to explain why other than society has ruled that certain music, games and movies aren't appropraite for children.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jaime



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PWNN wrote:
>>Certainly, there has been an apparent explosion in pedophilia and other abnormal sexual practice.<<

There has been an explosion in the reporting of pedophilia just as there has in all rape. These are crimes that have always been around but had been under reported and swept under the rug as shameful for the victim and too unsavory a subject for decent public discussion. There was a time newspapers wouldn't even report these crimes because they didn't want to upset their readers.

None of that means the crimes didn't exist in fairly significant numbers. Some of the largest recorded pedophile scandals happened when people couldn't buy porn legally and books were regularly banned for any sexual content. The cases against the Boston & Philadelphia Archdioceses went back to the 1950s. To believe that there weren't even earlier incidents that went unreported because victims had aged or died out would be naive.

During the publicly prudish Victorian age every 6th house in London was a whorehouse, which catered to every sexual taste or perversion - including pedophilia. Read Caleb Carr's novel The Alienist to see how turn of the century lower NYC with it's influx of immigration, crowded housing and poverty was a hotbed of exploited, abused, missing and murdered children that never went publicly reported by the press.

When it comes down to it I don't think emotionally, sexually or criminally there's anything new under the sun.


Thank you. There aren't any more instances of sex crimes against women and children. It's just that sexual predators which are often male don't have such a safe hunting ground any more as they did in the past.

And I always laugh when folks think that the Victorian age in particular was such a golden age of moral rectitude. Just because all vice gets swept under the carpet and hidden away in dark corners doesn't mean it's not there. I too read that during the Victorian age prostitution was the most common profession of poor women in the cities. The industrial revolution was such a godsend for poor women - suddenly they had a choice besides going into service or prostitution. And as for what happened to unprotected and poor children - lets just say making a "living" as a pickpocket was one of the less dire choices available.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lynda X



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1410

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right when you point out the hypocrisy of the Victorians, the commonness of prostitution, and yes, people have always had sex.

However, clearly oral sex, for example, and homosexuality are much more acceptable and probably more common today. Of course, there have always been homosexuals and people have always had oral sex, but does anyone doubt that the general acceptance has resulted in an increase in practice? (By the way, I personally don't think that's bad). Oral sex NEVER was a problem in middle and even elementary schools, in the past, but talk to any principal and he/she'll tell you it is now. Yeah, yeah, I know the statistics about Puritan brides and their less-than-nine-month babies, but are you really arguing that sexual practices have not changed in America?

I have read that the number of acts by pedophiles is increasing, not just that more are reported. If you believe the experts who that say that many victims become pedophiles, then clearly, even without the commonness and encouragement of porn, just mathematically, it makes sense that there really are more victims today. It's like a family tree that begins with one couple and four generations later, there are 75 members. One pedophile molests say, 50 kids (a conservative number, over a life-time), and if only 5 kids do the same, then even by the second generation, we're up to 250 kids.

We want our kids and friends and ourselves to read certain books and see movies because we believe that they change people's opinions. UNCLE TOM'S CABIN, for example, is believed to have had a huge impact on our country's attitude toward slavery. Even if you don't believe in the mystical power of the Bible, many--if not most--people believe that if you read it, you will change. Why is the viewing of porn any different? Why is it the one thing that people believe has little or no effect on people who watch or read it? Logically, it has to have an effect. Now, to me the question is: is the effect good or bad? I cannot believe that our society's saturation, via the internet, with porn can be good for people. Do you? Really?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
PWNN



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 911

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be more people engaging in homosexuality - though I'm doubtful about that (certainly not in in comparison to say Ancient Rome, Greece or Sparta where it almost institutionalized) but the % of homosexuals is the same as it's always been so it would only be a change in repression. One can be a celibate heterosexual they are still a heterosexual, same with being a homosexual or bisexual. The threat of not being murdered, imprisoned or socially shunned allows it to be more openly practiced and less people leading less conflicted, closeted and damaging lives but it hasn't created more homosexuals or bisexuals. NYC had a thriving gay scene ages before Stonewall and later decriminalization, as did London, Paris etc and a there have always been a vast number of homosexuals who lived life on the "down low" while leading otherwise "respectable" married with children lives. Not to mention homosexuality and homosexual acts were always rather commonplace in public school, the military and prison where there were mainly all male populations.

Pedophilia is a mental illness that has nothing to do with porn. Yes many pedophiles were once victims themselves - because their psyches and how they related to love, sex and power were corrupted and changed at a very young age through abuse - not because they realized pedophilia was new kinky fun and wanted to share it with others. Just as with other physical abuse suffered by children they could also become abusers. The other side of the horror is that many victims take drugs and die young, are imprisoned or commit suicide. That we are now more aware of pedophilia, that it is reported more often, that victims are found at a younger age means these victims can be helped so that they do not turn into pedophiles.

I knew quite a few kids (upper, middle and lower class) having oral and yes penetrative sex in the 80s - in elementary school as well as middle and high school. It was there but most adults didn't know and the media didn't talk about it. Maybe students are just more brazenly talking about it - probably on Facebook and Twitter. That and some are now practicing oral and anal sex instead of vaginal penetration to keep themselves from becoming pregnant or in a misguided belief they're staying "pure" for the now in vogue Purity Pledge.

I do think certain sexual acts become more mainstream - not just because more people are practicing them but because many more people openly admit to practicing them which in turn makes them less taboo so others might try it. For instance, anal is the new oral. It's still partially a mainstream "ooh it's naughty" taboo though in a recent study about 40% of heterosexuals admit to having done it within the last year.

I agree with an above post that the definition of porn varies from person to person. There was a recent review on a Diane Farr book that said it was better than Balogh because it didn't have all that porn in it. I've read reviews of m/m books were they railed against the disgusting porn and it was just kisses and fade to black. For some porn just means any description of sex that makes them uncomfortable or titillated. For others it requires boom chukka music, bad acting and a pizza delivery or dungeon master . My stance, if you're a consenting adult and everyone involved is a consenting adult then hey whatever floats your boat.
_________________
"My safe word is monkey"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynda X wrote:



We want our kids and friends and ourselves to read certain books and see movies because we believe that they change people's opinions. UNCLE TOM'S CABIN, for example, is believed to have had a huge impact on our country's attitude toward slavery. Even if you don't believe in the mystical power of the Bible, many--if not most--people believe that if you read it, you will change. Why is the viewing of porn any different? Why is it the one thing that people believe has little or no effect on people who watch or read it? Logically, it has to have an effect. Now, to me the question is: is the effect good or bad? I cannot believe that our society's saturation, via the internet, with porn can be good for people. Do you? Really?


I follow what you are saying. I understand what you are saying about the numbers. However, I am of the believe that it is a percentage game. That a certain percentage is more the base line so as population increase the number increases of child molesters but not the percentage within the population. But regardless that is something we don't need to debate because one child being molested is one too many.

As for porn leading to pedophilia, I don't make the connection. I think Porn say like Playboy isn't any different than walking through my cities Art Museum. And there is even some "art" that has couples ingaged in sexual acts, but it is called Art and the Museum paid a huge price for the pieces.
As for porn movies, I have to say Hollywood has released some movies that I find much more erotic than some porn movies I have had the misfortune to see. I think back to Blue Lagoon as a kid, or Pretty Baby (what was Brooke Shields mother thinking allowing her daughter to be in that movie)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> Romance Potpourri Forum All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group