Taste is a different matter, I think. The moment that one states that he/she would neither buy nor read a book if he/she had known it contained BDSM, he/she has made a judgment implicitly disapproving the content.
Well said, and I agree. Somehow, "Ewwww, how could ANYONE eat asparagus!" does not give off the same vibe as, "Ewwww, how could ANYONE read a book about sexual domination!"
Awfully tricky, this subject, but awfully interesting too. . .
rob _________________ ...He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep...
Well said, and I agree. Somehow, "Ewwww, how could ANYONE eat asparagus!" does not give off the same vibe as, "Ewwww, how could ANYONE read a book about sexual domination!"
Awfully tricky, this subject, but awfully interesting too. . .
rob
I have a friend who's vegetarian. I am not. I eat meat and don't plan to be a vegetarian in the near future. Do I think that eating meat is more healthy? No. Do I think a world where people do not slaughter animals and eat them would be a better place? Most certainly, yes. A much better place. Does that keep me from eating meat? No. Why not? Because I like eating meat too much. Period. She has a poster hanging there in her bathroom which a cute puppy on it which looks at you with soulful eyes. The poster has the title: "Would you eat me?" And then there's a discourse on that poster about people eating dogs in other countries and that this is morally just as wrong as eating a lamb or a cow. I agree with that poster actually. And yet again it doesn't keep me from eating meat. And I am not annoyed with my friend for having that poster in her bathroom.
We are human, all of us have their dark little secrets and things we probably shouldn't do. I think reading erotica which heavily relies on BDSM is morally superior to eating meat certainly but nevertheless another choice of book would be more worthy and probably even better for you (the same goes for books about serial killers of course but that is not the topic here) . But you cannot expect everyone to agree with or everyone applaud you for doing it. You can only expect that it is legal for you to read them and legal for the authors to publish them. Nothing more and nothing less. That's how I see it.
[I have a friend who's vegetarian. I am not. I eat meat and don't plan to be a vegetarian in the near future. Do I think that eating meat is more healthy? No. Do I think a world where people do not slaughter animals and eat them would be a better place? Most certainly, yes. A much better place. Does that keep me from eating meat? No. Why not? Because I like eating meat too much. Period. She has a poster hanging there in her bathroom which a cute puppy on it which looks at you with soulful eyes. The poster has the title: "Would you eat me?" And then there's a discourse on that poster about people eating dogs in other countries and that this is morally just as wrong as eating a lamb or a cow. I agree with that poster actually. And yet again it doesn't keep me from eating meat. And I am not annoyed with my friend for having that poster in her bathroom.
We are human, all of us have their dark little secrets and things we probably shouldn't do. I think reading erotica which heavily relies on BDSM is morally superior to eating meat certainly but nevertheless another choice of book would be more worthy and probably even better for you (the same goes for books about serial killers of course but that is not the topic here) . But you cannot expect everyone to agree with or everyone applaud you for doing it. You can only expect that it is legal for you to read them and legal for the authors to publish them. Nothing more and nothing less. That's how I see it.
Kerstin
Kerstin, loved your post, well said!
Linda _________________ "Thou art my life, my love, my heart, the very eyes of me"
- Robert Herrick, 1591-1674
I agree that Kerstin's post was well-stated. The question though is whether one expresses disapproval by disagreeing about what should be included in romance fiction and/or erotica, isn't it? Can, or even should, thus expressing disapproval through disagreement have any effect? Probably not.
The problem is, I think, that expressing disapproval through disagreement sometimes makes those who disagree and those who are disagreed with uncomfortable, because disagreement and thus disapproval about sexual matters seems far more personal than disagreement and disapproval about other things. I really don't see much difference in this discussion than discussing the so-called "dukes of slut."
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 36 Location: Washington State, USA
Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject:
dick wrote:
Quote:
Taste is a different matter, I think. The moment that one states that he/she would neither buy nor read a book if he/she had known it contained BDSM, he/she has made a judgment implicitly disapproving the content.
I disagree with this statement.
I dislike stories that feature a 'reunion' plot which is where the hero and heroine had been previously married or involved and are now getting back together after a long separation. If I know a book features this plot I won't purchase it. That doesn't mean I disapprove of reunion storylines or am passing judgment on people who do, it just means that I, personally, don't care for reunion stories.
I think a person can know that they don't personally like BDSM stories and can choose to not purchase a book based on that alone without it having to be considered a moral judgment against those people who do like stories containing BDSM elements.
I think a person can know that they don't personally like BDSM stories and can choose to not purchase a book based on that alone without it having to be considered a moral judgment against those people who do like stories containing BDSM elements.
Perhaps. But for many people it is a moral judgment. What makes it possible for this thread to be civil is the pretense that no one would make moral judgments about other people's sexual tastes or about people who would make moral judgments about other people's sexual tastes, or about people who would make moral judgments about people who make moral judgments... and so on, ad infinitum. So everyone talks as if sexual behavior and reading about it is simply a matter of taste.
Is it civil? Yes.
Is it honest? I suspect not. _________________ JaneO
Repeating my emphasis on wording: "disapproval" includes implicit value judgments, "disagreement" does not require value judgments.
Yes, Mark. My point is that in an effort to keep everything civil, people will say "disagree" even if they really want to say "disapprove." There is nothing wrong with this. It just requires a bit of restraint — or, on occasion, a lot of restraint.
Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 4127 Location: minneapolis
Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject:
JaneO wrote:
Quote:
Repeating my emphasis on wording: "disapproval" includes implicit value judgments, "disagreement" does not require value judgments.
Yes, Mark. My point is that in an effort to keep everything civil, people will say "disagree" even if they really want to say "disapprove." There is nothing wrong with this. It just requires a bit of restraint — or, on occasion, a lot of restraint.
I haven't read any "disapproval" in this thread at all. And why is that invited anyway? Why should there be a question of moral judgement? I don't understand the confrontation of this thread. why not put a poll in this thread. yes....I read BSDM, no....I don't read BSDM. Are we to separate the "yays" and "nays"? _________________ Miss Willard at first refused to get into a lifeboat, and so an exasperated officer said, "Don't waste time-let her go if she won't get in!"
I share Xina's puzzlement. If I say I don't read paranormal romances, or secret baby storylines, or bdsm because I don't like them and they don't interest me, that is all I am saying -- what I think, what I feel. I am not saying or intending anything about the people who do read and enjoy these types of books. I'm not expressing disapproval or even disagreement, because disagreeing would suggest I evaluate someone's decision to choose a type of book, and I just don't do that. I read what I choose, and I assume others do as well. I don't see any controversy inherent in stating whether one enjoys bdsm storylines or not.
I think a person can know that they don't personally like BDSM stories and can choose to not purchase a book based on that alone without it having to be considered a moral judgment against those people who do like stories containing BDSM elements.
Perhaps. But for many people it is a moral judgment. What makes it possible for this thread to be civil is the pretense that no one would make moral judgments about other people's sexual tastes or about people who would make moral judgments about other people's sexual tastes, or about people who would make moral judgments about people who make moral judgments... and so on, ad infinitum. So everyone talks as if sexual behavior and reading about it is simply a matter of taste.
Is it civil? Yes.
Is it honest? I suspect not.
I think people often make judgments. I often judge the characters in a book I have read and rant about it (and those haven't even been BDSM books). Sometimes people do and did take that personally, sometimes they don't. You'll never know what ticks people off.
But what is a new dimension to me is that a person is attacked (on another board at that) for wanting to shred a book to pieces because it contained BDSM and she didn't know that this book would be about BDSM. I think that is truly weird. BDSM is an extreme form of sexuality and it is likely to offend some people if they are forced to "witness" it. Some people are more sensitive than others so some can shrug an unpleasant experience off, others can't do that as easily. I know when I read a book (even when I only read parts of it) with heavy BDSM elements I feel very uncomfortable and it follows me in my sleep, but not in a good way. Same goes for some thrillers.
That's why I have become very careful with my choice of books but sometimes critics lead you astray with a wrong back cover blurb or a wrong review of a book like the one book by Regina Deforges that I described in this thread. BDSM wasn't mentioned, not even in coded form, neither in the review nor on the book cover blurb. And frankly that totally pissed me off. I was so extremely angry with the reviewer, I would have gone into a serious dispute with her, if I only could have done that. I think it is totally misleading and even morally wrong to advertise a book with heavy BDSM elements as a pleasant summer read. Sorry, but that's totally freaky and cruel. It is like advertising a very nerve-racking thriller as a pleasant summer read.
Do I make a moral judgment on people who read BDSM with all that? I think not. But I make a moral judgment on people who think that erotica is automatically about BDSM and that you just have to expect that when you read a novel advertised as erotica and then begin to personally insult you if you obviously haven't expected that. It is an extreme life style (I'm not talking about a bit of handcuffing and role play, I talk about more extreme sexual activities that in reality can even cause physical damage) that seriously icks some people out and make them really uncomfortable. After all the extremer form of BDSM is really about pain and degradation. That is hard, brutal stuff. It is obvious to me that some people like that the genre gets more hard-core and more extreme and that they get defensive that some people don't at all like that development. Because if you automatically have to expect heavy BDSM in your erotica than the genre really has developed not in a good way IMO. Because sex shouldn't all be about pain and degradation. Those are not associations I want to have when reading about sex-or even worse-when I read about love. I don't want to get these associations. So some people want different kind of erotic romances or erotica, the gentler, harmless sort of fun kind and you can no longer be sure that you get it. I don't know if that is true but that one poster who posted that hate-rant about the book shredding said more or less that if you read erotica you have to expect to read the extreme stuff. Do we really have to automatically expect that when reading erotica? And if that is so, how can that not be seen critically by some?
>>Perhaps. But for many people it is a moral judgment. What makes it possible for this thread to be civil is the pretense that no one would make moral judgments about other people's sexual tastes or about people who would make moral judgments about other people's sexual tastes, or about people who would make moral judgments about people who make moral judgments... and so on, ad infinitum. So everyone talks as if sexual behavior and reading about it is simply a matter of taste.
Is it civil? Yes.
Is it honest? I suspect not.<<
These boards are a place for fun and leisure. Why would anyone post here on any topic, with pretense? Why take the time and effort to visit, only to pretend interest in any given topic so that you can "secretly" pass judgement? Seriously? Yeah, you're on to me---that's my REAL reason for posting here: to take time out of my day to read this post or that, then respond to those by shadowing my responses so no one guesses my "real" intent.
Good grief. This is a place for grown-ups.
rob _________________ ...He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep...
I think the original post had to do with why it was difficult to discuss pornography or its cousin erotica without the possibility of the discussion becoming uncivil. My post, I thought, applied to that question, suggesting that the reason is that when we disagree about matters having any hint of moral or ethical (or sexual) overtones, we are, in effect, expressing disapproval through that disagreement. If, for example, I were to write that sometimes it's best to lie and someone were to disagree with me, is the person who disagrees not expressing disapproval of the content of what I wrote? Why else would he disagree?
When a reader writes that he can't believe in the HEA for a "duke of slut," isn't that reader, in effect, expressing disapproval of promiscuity, or at least, disapproval of happily ever after for a promiscuous person?
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