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My Governor Arrested!
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: My Governor Arrested! Reply with quote

Sandlynn wrote:
LisaW wrote:
No, I think I was quite clear on what I meant. Barack Obama has come out of the CHICAGO political machine. And, anyone involved with the CHICAGO political machine is probably corrupt because that's how that game is played.


Every politician from Chicago is probably corrupt? That's an awful lot of people whose integrity you're impugning there.



Is everyone with hopes of being in Chicago politics corrupt? No. Do you get anywhere in Chicago politics without playing that game? No. Sorry if that bothers you, it's a fact. Has been for a very, very long time. New Orleans / Louisiana was right up there with the Longs. And, unfortunately the good New Orleans cops were badly overshadowed by the bad. In Chicago, it's the Daleys.

Maybe, just maybe this situation hitting so publicly will start the clean up.

I'm not holding my breath.
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LisaW



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donna Lea Simpson wrote:
The inductive argument LisaW is positing:

1 - All politicians from Chicago, Illinois are corrupt.
2 - President-Elect Barack Obama is a politician from Illinois
3 - Therefore, Obama is corrupt.

Wow. Lots of holes in that one, starting with Number 1. Anyone have proof that all politicians from Chicago, Illinois are corrupt?

Until you do have proof, is it not unfair to smear someone based on a fallacious argument?


First off, Obama is not just an Illinois politician -- he's a Chicago politician. He's been playing the game a long time. Resco. Land Deal. Big dollar back scratching with Ayers. But, just to keep things in prospective:

What Did Obama Know and When Did He Know It?

Laughing
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Ellie



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:


First off, Obama is not just an Illinois politician -- he's a Chicago politician. He's been playing the game a long time. Resco. Land Deal. Big dollar back scratching with Ayers. But, just to keep things in prospective:

What Did Obama Know and When Did He Know It?

Laughing


I'm not sure why you are so anxious to find that Obama did something wrong. Not only is there no proof at this point, other than he's from Chicago, but even supposing that was proof it would be horrible for the country to have the president elect be corrupt. Regardless of party or philosophy, how can you want this for the country? Right now we're fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, have a major economic crisis on the horizon, there was terrorism in Mumbai last week, and many more crises an incoming president has to deal with. Do you not want him to be able to do these things? Is party or geographic region more important than having a strong country going forward? Regardless of political party Obama is both of our president elect (assuming you're in the US).

I don't understand why you seem so anxious to show that Obama is guilty of wrongdoing. If he really did something, absolutely that should come forward, but as of now there has been zero connection other than being from the same city as someone who is corrupt. Why are you so anxious to tear him down? I truly don't get it.
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Ellie



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: My Governor Arrested! Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:



Is everyone with hopes of being in Chicago politics corrupt? No. Do you get anywhere in Chicago politics without playing that game? No. Sorry if that bothers you, it's a fact. Has been for a very, very long time. New Orleans / Louisiana was right up there with the Longs. And, unfortunately the good New Orleans cops were badly overshadowed by the bad. In Chicago, it's the Daleys.



So is Bobby Jindal corrupt? Should he not run for President because he's from Louisiana?
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Beth W



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellie wrote:
LisaW wrote:


First off, Obama is not just an Illinois politician -- he's a Chicago politician. He's been playing the game a long time. Resco. Land Deal. Big dollar back scratching with Ayers. But, just to keep things in prospective:

What Did Obama Know and When Did He Know It?

Laughing


I'm not sure why you are so anxious to find that Obama did something wrong. Not only is there no proof at this point, other than he's from Chicago, but even supposing that was proof it would be horrible for the country to have the president elect be corrupt. Regardless of party or philosophy, how can you want this for the country? Right now we're fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, have a major economic crisis on the horizon, there was terrorism in Mumbai last week, and many more crises an incoming president has to deal with. Do you not want him to be able to do these things? Is party or geographic region more important than having a strong country going forward? Regardless of political party Obama is both of our president elect (assuming you're in the US).

I don't understand why you seem so anxious to show that Obama is guilty of wrongdoing. If he really did something, absolutely that should come forward, but as of now there has been zero connection other than being from the same city as someone who is corrupt. Why are you so anxious to tear him down? I truly don't get it.


I can't speak for the other poster, but I am NOT anxious to find that Obama is guilty of wrongdoing. But I DO want the press to thorougly investigate "what Obama knew and when he knew it". If they find out that he was innocent in all this, that's fabulous. But at the same time, I don't think anyone should step aside and say, "Everyone really likes Obama so let's just ignore the fact there is a possibility he was involved." We NEED to know if there was any involvement or not.

Saying there's zero connection is not exactly true. One of Obama's aides already has said, yep, we talked to Blago about the seat (not necessarily about selling it, I know, but that's a connection). There are some coincidences involving a conference call and who might get the seat that seem to indicate that a staffer of Obama's was involved in the call. Again, there's no indication he did anything wrong - in fact, it's even possible that Obama's staff reported Blago to the feds after the call. We don't know yet. But there is more connection than just geography.
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Kass



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, there are a LOT of conservatives who hate Obama because he isn't a right-wing wingnut like them. Maybe Lisa's one of them...I vaguely remember her being very anti-Obama before, but could have confused her with someone else.
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted for Obama and hope he follows thru on most of his campaign rhetoric. I think he's a decent guy, as decent as one can be when playing in politics. Sorry, but I'm of the mind that being in politics does force one to play the game, even if it's only to get what you want for your constituents or state. However, that doesn't mean that everyone is "corrupt" either. The Senate and House's actions are made up of compromises much of the time; otherwise, we'd never have anything passed. That follows thru at the state legislative bodies as well.

Is Obama involved in all of this governor stuff? Of course, he is, but hopefully not at a very direct level. Was he aware of the goings-on of the governor? I hope so; otherwise, how astute is Obama anyway? For goodness sake, the people in Illinois apparently knew some of the governor's craziness. Why wouldn't Obama? The difference is (I hope) that he kept himself as far apart from that as he could as he did his business. And he knows enough people, both from around the country (being in the Senate) and from his own state, that rumors would abound on what was thought to be going on. But not know about it? I don't really think so. The man is too smart not to be aware of what's going on.
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Ellie



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beth W wrote:




Saying there's zero connection is not exactly true. One of Obama's aides already has said, yep, we talked to Blago about the seat (not necessarily about selling it, I know, but that's a connection). There are some coincidences involving a conference call and who might get the seat that seem to indicate that a staffer of Obama's was involved in the call. Again, there's no indication he did anything wrong - in fact, it's even possible that Obama's staff reported Blago to the feds after the call. We don't know yet. But there is more connection than just geography.


You're right, there might be some connection---just no evidence of wrongdoing at this point.

I don't mean to come off as harsh, and maybe I directed more if this at Lisa than I should have, but I just don't get and am really angry about what seems like the glee on the right at the possibility that Obama could have done something dishonest (and so far nothing indicates that was the case---there were probably conversations between his staff and Blago but nothing indicates they went anywhere or that Obama's staff was playing ball). I don't mean to repeat myself, but it would be terrible for the country if I'm wrong and Obama did do something corrupt. And yes, it should certainly come out and be investigated if he did. But why want it to happen?? Why be happy about this? The entire scandal and what Blago did to the state of Illinois is sad. I'm at a loss as to why people seem happy about this---party politics should not be more important than the state or the country.

Edited to add---I don't mean to pick on Lisa W. I am reacting to her negativity to Obama though. On the Change thread below she basically argued that Obama wouldn't bring change because he's already running for reelection. It feels like she's hoping he fails, and that negativity disturbs me. I understand and respect disagreeing on policy and ideas, but when it becomes partisanship so strong that one expects and (I think though maybe I'm wrong) hopes for failure it pushes some buttons.
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Donna Lea Simpson



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It just seems that so many people spend so much time slinging accusations and demanding explanations, along with demanding that the person they are accusing react in the 'right' way, that I wonder... how does anyone in government get any work done? If you have to answer AT LENGTH any and every hint of accusation, how do you progress?

Because there will always be hints and accusations, always, and there will always be people pouncing on those hints and accusations. How do they decide which ones to respond to, and how to respond? Do we really want to force politicians into becoming spin doctors, even more than they already are? Does the politician who can 'spin' the best win? Really?
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellie, I am not "so anxious" to find that Obama did anything wrong. I hope he's the best president this country has ever had. I'm not holding my breath ...

See, there's already some questions as to his dealings. Tony Rezko, for example. Do you understand there was something hinky about a land deal where Rezko sold a chunk of property to the Obama's for less than market -- and rendered the piece he retained useless? You don't do that for fun! And Rezko is under investigation. Are you familiar with the SEIU? Get familiar. The union is under investigation in California. The founder is related in some way with a biggie with ACORN -- which is under investigation in many states. Mr Obama has had heavy dealings with both these organizations in the recent past. Is Mr Obama even eligible to be President of the United States? There are lawsuits in place about his actual birth location. Because his father was foreign, because his mother was a minor, if he wasn't actually born in Hawaii but was born in Kenya, by law, he isn't eligible. And, no he hasn't released the proper form for proof. And No, the state of Hawaii has not said he was born in Hawaii. The wording is lawyerish (and CYA a lot). All Obama had to do to clear this up was actually produce his Hawaiian birth certificate.

What I see is a President-Elect who plays the race card and will continue to do so. Who has played a lot of ignorant people to get elected (have you seen the video of that poor woman who thinks she won't have to worry about how she'll fill her gas tank, pay her utilities or mortgage when Mr Obama is President?? And she's not the only one). I see a President-Elect that the mainstream media work very, very hard not to vet properly and will now not question him. Geeze, after the election they were going on and on about how "They didn't really know Barack Obama." Hey, fellows -- that was your job, to find out and report. You Didn't!! Show me a CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, etc., who goes after everything Obama does as they did with Bush and I'll relax. They won't. And the worry will always be "Oooh, if we question too hard, there will be rioting in the streets." Well, if there is, pull out the heavy guns and clear the streets. (and, yes, you did understand that correctly)

This country is facing a financial crisis like it hasn't seen since the 1930's and what is the great Changer wanting to throw at it? FDR like fixes -- and it's very well understood that the programs FDR initiated trying to lighten the Great Depression actually kept it around longer. Everyone and his brother is standing there with their hand out wanting "Government Money" -- folks, Governments don't have money -- they do not produce anything -- they do not create anything -- they do not earn anything. They take that money out of your pocket. Unfortunately, while George W Bush was a social conservative and understood the need to protect this country, he was hardly the financial conservative we conservatives wanted (and calling conservatives RIGHT-WING WINGNUTS is about as tacky as it gets -- but what can I expect from a stupid whiney liberal? Ooh, that's right, you liberals all think just 'cause you're liberal you are more intelligent -- heh -- NOT.).


Donna Lea Simpson wrote:
It just seems that so many people spend so much time slinging accusations and demanding explanations, along with demanding that the person they are accusing react in the 'right' way, that I wonder... how does anyone in government get any work done? If you have to answer AT LENGTH any and every hint of accusation, how do you progress?

Because there will always be hints and accusations, always, and there will always be people pouncing on those hints and accusations. How do they decide which ones to respond to, and how to respond? Do we really want to force politicians into becoming spin doctors, even more than they already are? Does the politician who can 'spin' the best win? Really?


Wow, Donna -- where have you been the past 8 years? Oh, right, when it's a Republican in office, accusations have to be made constantly. Fault has to be found constantly. It's always guilty until you're convinced they're innocent, and since they can't be innocent, there is no convincing, eh?


What I see is -- remember how much fun you all had griping and moaning about how awful George W Bush was? How stupid? What a cowboy? It's our turn now and we ain't gonna be quiet. Mainly, because there is no national news media that is in place to keep the government in check.
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Ellie



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lisa,
I'm not even sure how to respond to you because quite frankly your level of anger is stunning. I'm not sure what you're so angry about, but wow.... The only person to use the phrase "wingnut" in this entire thread was you. That and calling me a "whiny liberal."

And I never had "fun griping and moaning about how awful George W. Bush is ..." You are right, I don't like George Bush. But I don't like griping about him, and I wish he had turned out to be the best President this country has had. Even after the 2000 election that was basically decided by the Supreme Court when I was deeply disappointed, I wanted great things for this country and I wanted great leadership. I did not go looking for guilt by association and blaming Bush for things that others had done. If I ever griped about Bush, and I certainly did not on this board, it was with great sadness. And it was because of things he had done, such as promoting the war in Iraq, keeping on incompetent staffers like Gonzales, Rumsfeld, and Michael Brown. Any "griping" as you put it that I did engage in was over incompetence that lead to unnecessary deaths, not because of scurrilous rumors.

And I don't want to derail the thread into complaining about Bush, but I fail to see how that is remotely the same thing as blaming Obama for things other people did, that noone has proven (the birth certificate thing? You really want to bring that up?) But I wish I had no cause to gripe about Bush. I would far, far rather have a president elect McCain and a better run Iraq war and less national deficit than a President elect Obama and a war we cannot get out of and deep economic problems. I would take that trade-off in a heartbeat despite my fundamental disagreements with the republicans on policy.

I am sorry you feel so much anger. I'm not sure what it's over, but truly maybe you should think about why you feel the need to spew such vitriol and spend that energy on how we can make our country (both of our country) a better place rather than tearing other people down.

Edited to add: Regardless of who "started" them, are "gotcha politics" good for our country period? Is this really the direction we want to take the nation in? If our government should be run with intent to bring the "other side" down, rather than for the common good of the American people we have far, far bigger problems than the economic meltdown and terrorism, etc because we will never be able to fix any of the "smaller" problems.
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Donna Lea Simpson



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wow, Donna -- where have you been the past 8 years? Oh, right, when it's a Republican in office, accusations have to be made constantly. Fault has to be found constantly. It's always guilty until you're convinced they're innocent, and since they can't be innocent, there is no convincing, eh?


Was that me complaining about President Bush? Really? And me a Canadian.

Actually, my comment was completely lacking in partisan politics, mostly because as a Canadian, I have no real right to find fault or criticize American political workings. My question was about politics in general, and yes, I do walk the walk when it comes to wanting politicians to hold themselves to a higher standard in their campaigning and general dealings. When the local candidate for my choice of political party went after another local candidate for something an aide of his had said years ago in a blog entry, I let my political party know in no uncertain terms that I was disappointed, and that they had chosen the wrong way to KEEP my vote.

The other guy won, by the way, and I was happy for him because I truly believe he has honour and character, which I hope Ottawa does not stamp out of him.

Vitriol and partisan sniping have no place in politics, and I mean that across the board.
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellie wrote:
Lisa,
I'm not even sure how to respond to you because quite frankly your level of anger is stunning. I'm not sure what you're so angry about, but wow.... The only person to use the phrase "wingnut" in this entire thread was you. That and calling me a "whiny liberal."



Ellie,
I know it's hard to accept someone can not agree with you -- gee, that have to be "angry." But, then you aren't reading for comprehension today.

Kass wrote:
Sadly, there are a LOT of conservatives who hate Obama because he isn't a right-wing wingnut like them. Maybe Lisa's one of them...I vaguely remember her being very anti-Obama before, but could have confused her with someone else.


Those bolds were mine -- just wanted you to be able to see them. And, the "whiny liberal" was part of my comment about that. But, if you think you might be a whiny liberal, okay.


Ellie wrote:
And I never had "fun griping and moaning about how awful George W. Bush is ..." You are right, I don't like George Bush. But I don't like griping about him, and I wish he had turned out to be the best President this country has had. Even after the 2000 election that was basically decided by the Supreme Court when I was deeply disappointed, I wanted great things for this country and I wanted great leadership. I did not go looking for guilt by association and blaming Bush for things that others had done. If I ever griped about Bush, and I certainly did not on this board, it was with great sadness. And it was because of things he had done, such as promoting the war in Iraq, keeping on incompetent staffers like Gonzales, Rumsfeld, and Michael Brown. Any "griping" as you put it that I did engage in was over incompetence that lead to unnecessary deaths, not because of scurrilous rumors.



See, here's the problem. The Supreme Court did not decide the 2000 election. All they did was tell the Florida Supreme Court they couldn't decide the 2000 election by changing the Florida election laws mid-vote. Judges are suppose to interpret the law, not inact their own. And, uh, do a little Googling -- you'll find where the NYTimes paid for their own Florida recount in 2000. Guess who won? George W Bush.

As to keeping "incompetent staffers," what was your opinion of Janet Reno? How about Monica Lewinsky? Madeline Albright? Rumsfeld's biggest failing was in trying to keep the war in Iraq and Afghanistan small (mainly to keep the public who really don't understand such things happy). Brown wasn't great, hardly, but the while it was cool to blame Bush and his policy for the Katrina woes, everyone keeps forgetting the Feds cannot go into a state to help until the Governor asks. Between Gov Blanco refusing to declare an emergency -- even though it was clear Katrina was going to be way bad -- and Nagin cutting and running instead of working to evacuate his city properly, the major blame falls to incompetence in Louisiana, not Washington.

And, well, even though those pesky WMDs didn't exist -- unless you call those biologicals they found (only would have killed a few 100 thousand, that's not really a "mass" is it?) or the nuclears Sadam was working on -- the fact this action in Iraq is as much a continuation of the First Gulf War as anything else. See, Sadam was supposed to do certain things (he didn't do) and not do certain things (he did do) and, oopsies, he failed. And when there were countries like Germany and France ignoring the oil embargo ... well, gosh, gee, that's not so bad. And, Sadam using the oil (he wasn't suppose to be selling except for food and aid for his people) to raise money to finance terrorist, who cares? Right?

Ellie wrote:
And I don't want to derail the thread into complaining about Bush, but I fail to see how that is remotely the same thing as blaming Obama for things other people did, that noone has proven (the birth certificate thing? You really want to bring that up?)


Ah, well, what was I thinking? Bringing up a birth certificate? Whether a candidate was truly eligible for the job? Pffft -- what was I thinking bringing that pesky old Constitution into it?


Ellie wrote:
But I wish I had no cause to gripe about Bush. I would far, far rather have a president elect McCain and a better run Iraq war and less national deficit than a President elect Obama and a war we cannot get out of and deep economic problems. I would take that trade-off in a heartbeat despite my fundamental disagreements with the republicans on policy.


Uh, what war we can't get out of? Iraq? Do you know anyone who is boots on the ground? I do -- several -- over the entire course of the war. Guess what? We are already pulling troops out and not replacing large numbers. Once the war was handled like a real war -- what is known as the "surge" -- the Iraqi people have stepped up, turned in insurgents, signed on as security and are taking care of their own country. I have a friend who is on his way home from his year's tour. His last letter before coming home stated "I have not heard a shot fired in anger since August." Don't see that in the news, do you? You didn't bother to go looking, either.

Ellie wrote:
I am sorry you feel so much anger. I'm not sure what it's over, but truly maybe you should think about why you feel the need to spew such vitriol and spend that energy on how we can make our country (both of our country) a better place rather than tearing other people down.

Edited to add: Regardless of who "started" them, are "gotcha politics" good for our country period? Is this really the direction we want to take the nation in? If our government should be run with intent to bring the "other side" down, rather than for the common good of the American people we have far, far bigger problems than the economic meltdown and terrorism, etc because we will never be able to fix any of the "smaller" problems.


I'm not angry. I'm scared. We have a Chicago Politics Trained President-Elect. That is scary.

And, yeah, there's this pesky Bill of Rights that let everyone before make their complaints -- good, bad or indifferent -- about President Bush and I get to use it to call the next President to task when he plays partisan politics.
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Ellie



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:



As to keeping "incompetent staffers," what was your opinion of Janet Reno? How about Monica Lewinsky? Madeline Albright?


Um, Janet Reno was incompetent. Monica Lewinsky was an intern, not a staffer and I have no idea about her competence for the job just about what took place not within her job responsibilities. Madeleine Albright I have a lot of respect for.

But fine, we disagree on policy and whether Clinton or Bush performed their jobs adequately. But there is a difference between disagreeing on policy, what's going on Iraq, the economy, etc. and spreading rumors with no evidence whatsoever such as the birth certificate thing, based on a chain email (by the way as to the birth certificate thing, a lawyer in Pennsylvania brought it to the Supreme Court who refused to hear the case). There's a difference between disagreeing about someone's actions versus tarring them with the same brush as someone else based what city they come from.
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LisaW



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellie wrote:

But fine, we disagree on policy and whether Clinton or Bush performed their jobs adequately. But there is a difference between disagreeing on policy, what's going on Iraq, the economy, etc. and spreading rumors with no evidence whatsoever such as the birth certificate thing, based on a chain email (by the way as to the birth certificate thing, a lawyer in Pennsylvania brought it to the Supreme Court who refused to hear the case). There's a difference between disagreeing about someone's actions versus tarring them with the same brush as someone else based what city they come from.


Sorry, but the "birth certificate thing" is not "just an email rumor." And that "lawyer in Pennsylvania" -- he's a former Deputy Attorney General (Democrat) of Pennsylvania. And I do not believe the Supremes have yet ruled on Berg's petition. And, the Supremes do not rule on the facts of a case -- only how it relates to the Constitution and Federal Laws. And, there are quite a number of related lawsuits -- not just this one. And, as to whether or not there is anything involving Barack Obama and Illinois / Chicago politics -- he was there, he was successful and yes, to be successful in Illinois / Chicago politics, you play their games. Mr Obama's chosen succesor's name was pulled from list Blago was looking at. There are tapes of discussions. Tapes of discussions of what quid pro quo was expected. One can hope that if some remuneration was asked for dealing with the Obama selection, not only was her name pulled, but he notified the FBI. That remains to be seen.

But, ties with the Rezko real estate deal and Rezko being indicted for criminal corruption charges. Ties with an admitted and known terrorist who, after 9-11-2001 said "I wish I had done more."

Add all on to this that every time something comes out about his associates, Mr Obama consistently states "I didn't know them" "I didn't speak with them" whatever the excuse ... when evidence shows, Yes, he did.
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