AAR
Click here for full forums index
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 
Just what is "romance" fiction
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> Romance Potpourri Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gail K.



Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 1292

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome, Schola. Glad we could clear that up.

Other more substantive posters can take over this thread now. Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to linda in sw va: This entire discussion inevitably returns to the word "romance/romantic," which is the reason I suggested the genre might better be called relationship fiction, wherein a happily satisfactory resolution of the relationship would be sufficient. With such a change, books such as The Marriage Bed and others with non-romantic elements, would fit right in. I can't, though, simply dismiss the qualifier "romance" from the label romance fiction.

Most readers readily distinguish between a romance and a love story, the first being, despite conflicts along the way, a nearly ideal love story with an HEA, the second not even requiring that the participants interact, as with Beatrice and Dante. If we were to examine the majority of romances , the HEA in them implies far more than an emotionally satisfying ending. Rather they imply that all conflict is over, everyone is happy beyond compare, the h/h will thereafter exist in a near-paradise for lovers, an ending which completes the ideal nature of it.

If such things as adultery and rape in a relationship the h/h are involved in can be included in romance fiction, the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the word "fiction" reverses the usual practice in English and somehow modifies the meaning of the word "romance" in an unusual way. One can only conclude that romance fiction is something other than romance.

By the way, I'm unable to determine what you mean by the clause about the $10 in your last post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to Elizabeth Rolls: The problem, in my opinion, is determining what can be included in "romantic" love. One of the things that seems to cling to the meaning of "romance" and "romantic" is the ideal nature of such a relationship, even though there may be conflicts in it. As you point out, it's unlikely that anyone would call a pedophiliac hero a proper element in a romance. Still, Lolita was a love story of a kind; the book, in some aspects, had an emotionally satisfying ending if justice is emotionally satisfying and could even have had an HEA had the author wanted to write it so. Readers may not have approved, because it's even more difficult to associate pedophilia with "romance" and an HEA than it is to associate infidelity and rape, I guess. In neither instance, though, would the relationship of the "hero" with the heroine have been considered ideal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
to linda in sw va: This entire discussion inevitably returns to the word "romance/romantic," which is the reason I suggested the genre might better be called relationship fiction, wherein a happily satisfactory resolution of the relationship would be sufficient. With such a change, books such as The Marriage Bed and others with non-romantic elements, would fit right in. I can't, though, simply dismiss the qualifier "romance" from the label romance fiction.


Dick, I think for you itís coming down to changing the name on the label but for me personally I feel these books fit in just fine within the genre as Ďromance fictioní and see no reason at all to change it. I donít have the same limitations as you do with regard to what cannot be present in the novel to still call it a Ďromanceí. The RWA definition captures the core elements that are important to me and equally important to me is to allow a variety of themes and plot ideas without trying to stifle the genre with exclusions or limitations.

Quote:
Most readers readily distinguish between a romance and a love story, the first being, despite conflicts along the way, a nearly ideal love story with an HEA, the second not even requiring that the participants interact, as with Beatrice and Dante. If we were to examine the majority of romances , the HEA in them implies far more than an emotionally satisfying ending. Rather they imply that all conflict is over, everyone is happy beyond compare, the h/h will thereafter exist in a near-paradise for lovers, an ending which completes the ideal nature of it.


I couldnít feel more differently about this Dick! I do not share this distinction. For me an emotionally satisfying ending of a romance novel, the HEA, implies that the couple is together and happy and ready to face life together and that includes its ups and itís downs. Of course, I like to think there will be more ups than downs. : ) Iíve never looked at is as all conflict being over forever with the couple existing in a near paradise every single day for the rest of their life, this is all news to me and sounds rather boring actually. Just goes to show how differently we as romance readers do view various aspects in the romance genre from itís plot themes and conflicts to the HEAís.

Quote:
If such things as adultery and rape in a relationship the h/h are involved in can be included in romance fiction, the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the word "fiction" reverses the usual practice in English and somehow modifies the meaning of the word "romance" in an unusual way. One can only conclude that romance fiction is something other than romance.


This just takes us back to the fact that not everything that occurs in a romance novel is going to be considered 'romantic'. I don't think it necessarily modifies the word romance but rather goes to show that it's a word that is not so easily definied as it can vary from person to person. For me the 'romance' in a romance novel isn't a long list of romantic actions but rather the couple falling in love, overcoming odds and essentially meeting the person they're going to spend the rest of their life with whether they know it at the begining of the book or not. Watching that infold is the romance.

However, if your'e saying that many readers seperate romance novels from reality then I would agree with you to a good extent. I can enjoy a lot in fiction (romance or otherwise) that I would find highly unpleasant in real life. Sitting safely on my living room couch watching it play out with a couple that does not include me can be quite enjoyable. Smile

Quote:
By the way, I'm unable to determine what you mean by the clause about the $10 in your last post.


You can refer back to your post on page 5. :)

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, I really enjoyed Jo Beverley's An Arranged Marriage, because I could see how torn up about it Nicholas was. And yes, I know Schola loathes this one and thinks Nicholas the cad to end all cads. Different strokes. Similarly I enjoyed The Marriage Bed and in the end came to believe that John had reformed, not just because of his commitment to Viola, but because he had seen and understood the pain his behaviour had caused other women as well. My point is that if you had asked me before I read these books what my reaction would be to an adulterous hero I'd have queried the sanity of the authors. But they worked for me. I accept that they do not work for everyone.


I had forgotten about An Arranged Marriage, I read that years ago and the adultery was not an issue for me then at all. In fact I thought it fit into the story and was resolved in a believable way, it didn't even register as a hot issue.

I think infidelity present in a romance is more workable for me with a scenario such as an arranged or forced marriage in which neither party is in love with each other yet or may not even know each other. They have married not out of love but for other reasons such as for an heir or to secure land, title or position or perhaps for protection. There may be an attraction there but that's all. I don't see this as nearly the betrayal I would if say the hero and heroine had been madly in love together, married for love and gave their vows under that sentiment. However even then I'm not saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done but that the author would have a pretty big challenge to fulfill.

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to linda in sw va: I think we've argued our way into greater agreement than disagreement. You seem to see the label romance fiction as merely that, a label for a particular kind of fiction. I see it as words with meanings that affect the content of that fiction. I think we'll have to just accept that we think the other is wrong for the reasons we've iterated. Regardless, I've enjoyed the discussion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
to linda in sw va: I think we've argued our way into greater agreement than disagreement. You seem to see the label romance fiction as merely that, a label for a particular kind of fiction. I see it as words with meanings that affect the content of that fiction. I think we'll have to just accept that we think the other is wrong for the reasons we've iterated. Regardless, I've enjoyed the discussion.


Dick, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you or agree to agree! lol I think anything further and we are just repeating ourselves. ;-)

But, I do have to correct you on one last point, I don't see the label as merely a label, the words have meaning regarding the content to me as well - just not necessarily the same as yours. I hope you can respect that. :)

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Schola



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:
<<Splash!>> That would be the sound of me jumping in.


And the water's as warm as tea, isn't it? Wink

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:
I really enjoyed Jo Beverley's An Arranged Marriage, because I could see how torn up about it Nicholas was. And yes, I know Schola loathes this one and thinks Nicholas the cad to end all cads. Different strokes.


Actually, I think John is the "cad to end all cads." When it comes to the Beverley novel, I just don't think Nicholas really loves Eleanor at the end and that he could still fall in love with another woman and act upon it.

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:
Similarly I enjoyed The Marriage Bed and in the end came to believe that John had reformed, not just because of his commitment to Viola, but because he had seen and understood the pain his behaviour had caused other women as well.


This would be where I say it "didn't work for me." (Whatever that prepositional phrase is worth.) It's honestly one of the most unsatisfying and unromantic resolutions I've ever read. (But who cares about me, right? Laughing ) Even the big speech at the inn, which was set up really clumsily from the beginning, seemed really contrived--and not even half as heartfelt as what he was silently feeling with Emma at the solicitor's office. The emotion is in some really strange places for a Romance novel.


Elizabeth Rolls wrote:
Not everything that happens in a romance novel has to be construed as "romantic". The point is not that everything should be "romantic" but that romantic love should triumph absolutely.


That's what I find so unsatisfactory. Do we get our resolution at the end because of John's feelings for Emma or his feelings for Viola? That speech seemed so lazy of Guhrke.
_________________
"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to linda in sw va: who wrote: But, I do have to correct you on one last point, I don't see the label as merely a label, the words have meaning regarding the content to me as well - just not necessarily the same as yours. I hope you can respect that.

Certainly I can respect it. Obviously, you and I have very different understandings of how language works.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to schola, who wrote:

" I just don't think Nicholas really loves Eleanor at the end and that he could still fall in love with another woman and act upon it."

It's difficult, given the text, to disagree with any certitude with your contention that Nicholas possibly didn't love Eleanor and that he might fall in love later. The marriage, without doubt, was unusual, even for an arranged one. But every insight into Nicholas' character in that book and in subsequent Rogues books, suggests that he would never "act"upon it. None of the books suggest that he is disloyal (the marriage itself and even his activities in the book suggest that), or doesn't keep his word. Beverley put him between a rock and a hard place, didn't she?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
[Certainly I can respect it. Obviously, you and I have very different understandings of how language works.


Wow Dick, that sounded harsh! I'm not going to ask you to clarify though, I don't think I want to know... Razz

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Schola



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
to schola, who wrote:

" I just don't think Nicholas really loves Eleanor at the end and that he could still fall in love with another woman and act upon it."

It's difficult, given the text, to disagree with any certitude with your contention that Nicholas possibly didn't love Eleanor and that he might fall in love later. The marriage, without doubt, was unusual, even for an arranged one. But every insight into Nicholas' character in that book and in subsequent Rogues books, suggests that he would never "act"upon it. None of the books suggest that he is disloyal (the marriage itself and even his activities in the book suggest that), or doesn't keep his word. Beverley put him between a rock and a hard place, didn't she?


I think I'll give in for now and take your word on that, Dick. Smile
_________________
"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to linda in sw va: I'm not sure how my statement was harsh; regardless, if you find it so, it wasn't intentional.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> Romance Potpourri Forum All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 7 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group