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trivias and references in romance novels
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Retrograde



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 458

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ariesgirl2008 wrote:
It amazes me how this rumor that a buboe is a plague sore is on several websites on the internet. If people would just stop to read a book or look in a dictionary to PROVE something before spreading around an ignorant opinion, then people would be more intelligent.

It's ok, seems you're intelligent enough for all of us.
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Lynda X



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1446

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ariesgirl, I'm not really sure what you are doubting in your response, but books and articles DO refer to plague sores and inflammation as buboes. The dictionary gives "bubo" as the singular form. Were you disputing my misspelling (buboe) or its meaning? I was amazed at your angry tone, but maybe I misinterpreted that too.

All of you who doubt that kissing a boo-boo well is NOT something that came down from the plague years may be right. Who knows? But it is very curious to me that out of the millions of words or sounds parents could call scratches, they chose the word that means a plague sore.

Given that parents often kiss their kids' foreheads to determine if they have a fever, I don't find it hard to believe that parents might "kiss" the buboe to see if it's hot or out of desperate hope that if they bless it, that it might go away. If my kid were infected with the plague then, I'd do ANYTHING to cure him/her, regardless of how ridiculous. Given the appalling level of medical knowledge back then, a kiss was probably one of the better choices. At least it wouldn't kill you! All it would take is a few kids to survive the plague (which was not 100% lethal) for word to get around the kissing the buboe might make it go away, and then for that practice to morph into kissing any injury, suffered by a kid.

Given all the sayings that have come down to us, totally lost from their original meanings or now used so often that we don't think of their meanings, it's not hard to believe that "kissing the boo-boo" could be one of them. For example, when someone says, "It's a gyp," we don't bring to mind gypsies cheating people. When people say to one another, “Sleep tight, and don’t let the bed bugs bite,” we smile, but don’t really think of its real meaning. Mothers have been known to say, "If you're not home in time, I'll skin you alive," which sounds as if they were psychopaths, but it used to be very commonly said, and nobody really thought about what it meant or its historical references. Just the "God bless you" that people respond to a sneeze came down from people's belief in the middle ages that a sneeze allowed the devil to enter the body. A lot of people believe that “knocking on wood” originated from those times when people worshipped trees, and gradually its meaning changed. We are surrounded by history every day, and we don’t even notice it!

If you’d like to read more, there are tons of sites, but here are a couple. Even if only half of what they say is right, it’s amazing!
http://www.brownielocks.com/wordorigins.html
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genepool/sayings.htm
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bamagirl



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 129
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ariesgirl2008 wrote:
Quote:
What literature can you quote so I can look up whether what you say has any truth??? I don't buy it.


I'm sorry you don't buy it, even though I wasn't really trying to sell you on it. I was merely stating what I had heard/read, etc. - it's an expression of opinion and thought. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. As a parent, I personally think that it is a terribly sad, yet touching story. I know that I would go to great lengths to ease my own children's pain.
In response to your question, the school where I teach is currently closed for the week of the 4th, but I'll be happy to pull the book as soon as I can.

We can all share our thoughts on the forums even if someone else thinks our thoughts are just
Quote:
ignorant opinion
without offending others - I think.
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Sandra Schwab



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 71
Location: Frankfurt, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veasleyd1 wrote:

There are also very bloodthirsty rhymes in English. My grandfather used to recite:

Fee, fi, fo, fum,
I smell the blood of an Englishman.
Be he live, or be he dead,
I'll grind his bones and make my bread.


Now if that isn't a coincidence: I did some research on that rhyme today -- I tried to find out whether a version of "Fee faw fum, I smell the blood of an Irishman" already existed prior to 1890. I wasn't too successful, but on the other hand, the original verses from "Jack & the Beanstalk" are easy enough to vary. Smile

"Zogen einst fünf wilde Schwäne" is one of my favourite folk songs even though it is so melancholic.
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jaq



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nana I've never heard that song before, but I'm almost sure there's another verse to the one I quoted.

I can't remember who posted about the Teddy Bear rhyme, but I remember it as a skip rope song that went like this

Not last night but the night before
24 robbers came to my door
And this is what they said to me
Lady turn around, turn around, turn around
Lady touch the ground, touch the ground, touch the ground
Lady tie your shoe, tie your shoe, tie your shoe
Lady that will do, that will do, that will do.
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh, only on a romance website would people be romanticizing buboes. The plague was a hideous horrible disease. In septicemic plague contact with the sores would cause one to catch the plague. So kissing a sore would be a sure way to catch the plague, and what if the child survived and the mother died of it because she kissed a sore. Duh!

I'd love to see someone prove with documentation from a book where the subject was researched that a boo boo is a buboe. By the way, a boo boo is a mistake or error, I suppose that is connected to the plague too eh?

There are some religious cults who believe in the lost tribes of Israel and claim that the Jews are only descended from the tribe of Jude and that the tribe of Dan traveled to everywhere that had the word Dan or a word that even Sounds like Dan has to have descendants from the tribe of Dan living in it. Hence Denmark is full of people from the tribe of Dan etc etc,
wow, do you know how many cities and places have Den or Dan or Don in them???? But hey if you want to claim the origin of the word boo boo with no proof why don't you believe this old wives tale too?
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jaq



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I just remember another one (children really are bloodthirsty!)

Cross your heart
Hope to die,
Stick a needle in your eye.

A lot more violent than swearing on a stack of bibles, that's for sure.
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Schola



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ariesgirl2008 wrote:
Sigh, only on a romance website would people be romanticizing buboes.


I've gotten used to having non-Romance readers roll their eyes at my reading and the message boards on which I post my thoughts on that reading, but this is the first time have I've run into a fellow Romance reader who didn't seem to understand that, far from believing everything we read, Romance readers generally have a firm grip on reality.

ariesgirl2008 wrote:
The plague was a hideous horrible disease. In septicemic plague contact with the sores would cause one to catch the plague. So kissing a sore would be a sure way to catch the plague, and what if the child survived and the mother died of it because she kissed a sore. Duh!


Weren't plague outbreaks most common during the Middle Ages, when people didn't understand basic facts about hygeine? People still thought that colds came from catching a chill rather than from viruses, and other "romantic" ideas. I wonder when doctors started talking about "septicemic" diseases; but it can't have been earlier than when they started washing their hands as a matter of course.

In other words, Ariesgirl, it is plausible to say that what is "Duh!" to a kindergartener today would have been completely alien to a grown woman in the 1300s, who just wanted to comfort her child ill with the plague.

ariesgirl2008 wrote:
I'd love to see someone prove with documentation from a book where the subject was researched that a boo boo is a buboe. By the way, a boo boo is a mistake or error, I suppose that is connected to the plague too eh?


I believe that Bamagirl has said she will look up her source as soon as the school where the book is opens again. Just sit tight, okay?

ariesgirl2008 wrote:
There are some religious cults who believe in the lost tribes of Israel and claim that the Jews are only descended from the tribe of Jude and that the tribe of Dan traveled to everywhere that had the word Dan or a word that even Sounds like Dan has to have descendants from the tribe of Dan living in it. Hence Denmark is full of people from the tribe of Dan etc etc,
wow, do you know how many cities and places have Den or Dan or Don in them???? But hey if you want to claim the origin of the word boo boo with no proof why don't you believe this old wives tale too?
Very Happy Laughing Cool Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Smile : Very Happy Smile Very Happy Laughing Laughing Laughing


Now that is grossly unfair. Again, the supporting documentation for the other claim is coming. There's no need to insult people who don't want to break into a locked school building at your convenience.
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bamagirl



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 129
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bamagirl wrote:
Quote:
Yes...but the plague sores could rise anywhere lymph glands were - the bend of an arm for example. Anyway, I think that it's a touching ondit. Afterall, I kissed a boo boo on a toe yesterday.



Ariesgirl2008:
I made the simple statement above that a plague sores could rise in locations other than the groin. I haven't personally read about boo boo coming from bubo - but it seems possible. Since I haven't read it I can't argue it and won't. I can also imagine a parent going to great lengths to comfort a sick and dying child. That was my point. With a quick and simple Internet search I found two 14th century drawings that showed plague sores on other parts of the body. Yes, it would be gross to kiss a plague sore - I don't think anyone would argue against that. However, we don't know everything that happened in the 14th century either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
It shows -to quote from the picture's caption: Illustration of the Black Death from the Toggenburg Bible (1411)
and another at:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/plague.htm

Just to be clear, the only thing I am trying to show with the two websites (yes, I only have time for a very brief research) that I looked at is that it's possible for sore to rise in places other than the groin - that's all - which goes back to my first comment (posted above).
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Elizabeth Rolls



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1076
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
By the way, a boo boo is a mistake or error, I suppose that is connected to the plague too eh?


Really? The OED gives the definition as a trick or prank, dating from the early 20th century. What's your source, Ariesgirl?


Quote:
Bit of a goofy area to be kissing someone.


I'll grant you the armpit, but the groin? Not in my book! Wink Although maybe not with a plague sore attached . . . still, if monks could prance across Europe whipping themselves silly to persuade God to ease off on the plague, there's no limit to the kinky penances they could come up with. Wish Monty Python had thought of it.

Elizabeth
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2498

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like ariesgirl, I'm a bit skeptical that boo boo stems from bubo. The earliest use of the word to indicate a sore that I can find (I don't have an OED at hand) is 1954, and that attribution suggests that it's a corruption of boo hoo. Like her opponents though, I'm not certain enough that it's an impossible etymology to become quarrelsome about it. English is such a remarkably fecund language it's unwise to be certain about such things.
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Retrograde



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 458

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that boo boo is predominantly used in America. I've never heard anyone say it here, and have only come across it while watching American TV shows or movies. If it truly evolved from buboe, i'd have thought we would have retained the saying.
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Schola



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're all willing to find out the real origin of "boo boo" and don't really care whether it comes from "buboe" or not. The conversation just got a bit more heated than usual.

Incidentally, my Spanish grandmother's equivalent of "boo boo" was "pu pa." Laughing I wouldn't want to trace the origin of that one!
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Nana



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 947

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaq wrote:
Nana I've never heard that song before, but I'm almost sure there's another verse to the one I quoted.

.


Haha! Found the whole thing.

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiFALLRIVR.html
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ariesgirl2008



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>the conversation just got a little more heated than usual

You call this a heated conversation? Laughing Laughing Laughing
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