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The Siren by Tiffany Reisz
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Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
[and thanks Linda, I do worry it is hard to sometimes type out thoughts that would be much better talked over a coffee with legs pulled under on a comfy couch. And I certainly wouldn't give anyone a pass in reality, only in fiction do I give a lot more latitude to create a story.


No worries there, cheers! Too late for coffee but I'm raising my wine glass to ya. Enjoy your evening and your book! Smile

Linda
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willaful



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
But I think I do have a problem now that I just left Michael in the Rolls with Knightly. I am hoping there isn't too much pushing this issue, I don't want to use my safe word and stop reading.


This is just about where I stopped reading. Confused
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erika



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for your insights on this book.
The first time I heard about this book was in an email from Harlequin. What's intriguing is that it was advertised as better than Fifty Shades trilogy. After reading these posts I can say it may be more disturbing than Fifty Shades.
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Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erika wrote:
Thanks all for your insights on this book.
The first time I heard about this book was in an email from Harlequin. What's intriguing is that it was advertised as better than Fifty Shades trilogy. After reading these posts I can say it may be more disturbing than Fifty Shades.


It's 100 X more disturbing than Fifty Shades. IMHO. The writing is more polished but there's also a distance there between me and the story that I didn't feel with Fifty, the characters are less likable. So calling it 'better' really depends on what you're looking for. I had a smile on my face while reading Fifty, I cringed as I read The Siren. They're very different books. As a reader Fifty was more enjoyable for sure but The Siren has it's own merits.

I think it's wrong for the publisher to pit them against each other, readers that really loved Fifty are going to roll their eyes at the statement that it's better (I know I did) and I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a book for the same readers that enjoyed FSoG. The Siren isn't a sexy read and I would be hard pressed to call it a love story, at least not yet. It's more like straight fiction.

Linda
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jaime



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:
erika wrote:
Thanks all for your insights on this book.
The first time I heard about this book was in an email from Harlequin. What's intriguing is that it was advertised as better than Fifty Shades trilogy. After reading these posts I can say it may be more disturbing than Fifty Shades.


It's 100 X more disturbing than Fifty Shades. IMHO. The writing is more polished but there's also a distance there between me and the story that I didn't feel with Fifty, the characters are less likable. So calling it 'better' really depends on what you're looking for. I had a smile on my face while reading Fifty, I cringed as I read The Siren. They're very different books. As a reader Fifty was more enjoyable for sure but The Siren has it's own merits.

I think it's wrong for the publisher to pit them against each other, readers that really loved Fifty are going to roll their eyes at the statement that it's better (I know I did) and I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a book for the same readers that enjoyed FSoG. The Siren isn't a sexy read and I would be hard pressed to call it a love story, at least not yet. It's more like straight fiction.

Linda


Nods. I don't think The Siren has enough sex to be labeled erotic fiction and it's definitely not a romance novel, and it's not chick lit either - so yes, it probably fits best into the fiction label.
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erika



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:
erika wrote:
Thanks all for your insights on this book.
The first time I heard about this book was in an email from Harlequin. What's intriguing is that it was advertised as better than Fifty Shades trilogy. After reading these posts I can say it may be more disturbing than Fifty Shades.


It's 100 X more disturbing than Fifty Shades. IMHO. The writing is more polished but there's also a distance there between me and the story that I didn't feel with Fifty, the characters are less likable. So calling it 'better' really depends on what you're looking for. I had a smile on my face while reading Fifty, I cringed as I read The Siren. They're very different books. As a reader Fifty was more enjoyable for sure but The Siren has it's own merits.

I think it's wrong for the publisher to pit them against each other, readers that really loved Fifty are going to roll their eyes at the statement that it's better (I know I did) and I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a book for the same readers that enjoyed FSoG. The Siren isn't a sexy read and I would be hard pressed to call it a love story, at least not yet. It's more like straight fiction.

Linda


And I might have read The Siren and been very disappointed. An older heroine have relations with a teen would have had me completely turned off. Thank goodness I waited for discussions like this.

I wonder if this series will have a HEA?
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jaime



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erika wrote:
Linda in sw va wrote:
erika wrote:
Thanks all for your insights on this book.
The first time I heard about this book was in an email from Harlequin. What's intriguing is that it was advertised as better than Fifty Shades trilogy. After reading these posts I can say it may be more disturbing than Fifty Shades.


It's 100 X more disturbing than Fifty Shades. IMHO. The writing is more polished but there's also a distance there between me and the story that I didn't feel with Fifty, the characters are less likable. So calling it 'better' really depends on what you're looking for. I had a smile on my face while reading Fifty, I cringed as I read The Siren. They're very different books. As a reader Fifty was more enjoyable for sure but The Siren has it's own merits.

I think it's wrong for the publisher to pit them against each other, readers that really loved Fifty are going to roll their eyes at the statement that it's better (I know I did) and I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a book for the same readers that enjoyed FSoG. The Siren isn't a sexy read and I would be hard pressed to call it a love story, at least not yet. It's more like straight fiction.

Linda


And I might have read The Siren and been very disappointed. An older heroine have relations with a teen would have had me completely turned off. Thank goodness I waited for discussions like this.

I wonder if this series will have a HEA?


Well, both The Siren and The Angel have HEAs for certain characters - just not for Nora. Smile
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Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erika wrote:
[
And I might have read The Siren and been very disappointed. An older heroine have relations with a teen would have had me completely turned off. Thank goodness I waited for discussions like this.

I wonder if this series will have a HEA?


I would like to see some redeeming of themselves before a HEA comes into play. I've just started The Angel and on page 11 Nora is thinking of Michael, the boy she had sex with at 15 - "She smiled at the memory of Soren's anniversary gift to her last year: the virginity of possibly the prettiest teenage boy in the known world. "

I've been thinking of the nature vs nurture in the 'kinky sex' dept, though kinky seems a light word for the levels of pain that goes on between them. I don't think kinky sex is instinctual as it's compared to being attracted to someone of the same sex in a homosexual. That said, how adults chose to play out their sexuality should be their choice, as long as it's consenting. Adult being key. A mentally fragile 15 year old virgin does not fall into that category. He's become prey and a sexual plaything. I think Nora is going to be 'training' him during this book, if some of the reviews I've read are correct. To steal an expression from Judy, I may have to safeword out!

Side note - when peeking in at the Potpourri Forum there's a post titled 'Tortured Romances', shows where my mind is at with this book that I thought it said 'torture romances' and The Siren came to mind! Laughing Embarassed

Linda
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Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:


I would like to see some redeeming of themselves before a HEA comes into play. I've just started The Angel and on page 11 Nora is thinking of Michael, the boy she had sex with at 15 - "She smiled at the memory of Soren's anniversary gift to her last year: the virginity of possibly the prettiest teenage boy in the known world. "

I've been thinking of the nature vs nurture in the 'kinky sex' dept, though kinky seems a light word for the levels of pain that goes on between them. I don't think kinky sex is instinctual as it's compared to being attracted to someone of the same sex in a homosexual. That said, how adults chose to play out their sexuality should be their choice, as long as it's consenting. Adult being key. A mentally fragile 15 year old virgin does not fall into that category. He's become prey and a sexual plaything. I think Nora is going to be 'training' him during this book, if some of the reviews I've read are correct. To steal an expression from Judy, I may have to safeword out!

Side ntoe - when peeking in at the Potpourri Forum there's a post titled 'Tortured Romances', shows where my mind is at with this book that I thought it said 'torture romances' and The Siren came to mind! Laughing Embarassed

Linda


I have been thinking of "safe wording" but I like the writing and I want to know, how it plays out, for some reason I have faith that it is worth the ride.

THIS IS WHAT I LOVE. I love that this series is really making me think about lots of things.

1) as a teen I remember reading Historicals with Heriones that were teenagers and the Hero was older, often LOTS older. I NEVER even thought about the issue, but I was a teenager. I once read an interview with Julia Quinn and she spoke of trying to make her heroines older (18-22) but "keep the reasons historically correct" or something like that. So i question is my difficulty with this based on gender biase that is built in with me and fiction. (not real life, although somewhat there too)

So I am using "this is only a story" (Hunger Games isn't real either)

2) This series is certainly not a traditional Romance. We don't have the main characters following the formula. I do think The Siren ended with everyone getting HEA. Nora went back to Soren and they are a pair as is Zach and Grace. Wes need to move on, he isn't Nora's HEA and she Shouldn't be his. The interesting thing and really creative is that Nora writes erotica but the book she is trying to write in The Siren is a different type of Romance were the two lovers come apart at the end. So is that forshadowing for this series?

3)As Lady Gaga sings so well, I am going with Born This Way
"Born This Way"


[Intro:]
It doesn't matter if you love him, or capital H-I-M
Just put your paws up
'cause you were born this way, baby

[Verse:]
My mama told me when I was young
We are all born superstars
She rolled my hair and put my lipstick on
In the glass of her boudoir

"There's nothing wrong with loving who you are"
She said, "'Cause he made you perfect, babe"
"So hold your head up girl and you'll go far,
Listen to me when I say"

[Chorus:]
I'm beautiful in my way
'Cause God makes no mistakes
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way
Don't hide yourself in regret
Just love yourself and you're set
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way

I think Michael (not talking about age, just him) was born with a certain set of fetishes or thoughts and interests. That doesn't mean I think he should be food for others hunger, but it also doesn't mean that he shouldn't get some support, and maybe this is the only way these folks know to support and mentor (not that makes it right, but sometimes or most of the time people do the best they can and do what they know)

4) So that brings me to the question that runs around my head a lot with this series. IS Michael harmed? and in what way is he harmed? and are we all harmed by our journey in so way? So is harm unavoidable? OK that was multiple questions. I don't have any answers because I don't think Nora was harmed. I don't want her life, but I am pretty sure Nora's character has just as many checks in the got that right/got that wrong columes as me. I don't get everything right either.

4) which brings me to the justification issue. I have been thinking about that too. And I am pretty perfect in my life...never make any mistakes IMO, but if you interviewed my kids or husband they might tell you every now and then I make a slight mis-step but that I also justify my reasons for doing what I did. Point being the characters aren't the only ones that "justify (my love)" their actions IMO every one of us real life people do that. These are the things for me that make the characters so good and so complicated and interesting to read.

I can pick up a thousand traditional romances and get some of a dozen formula stories, which don't stir a thought in my brain other than "were is my husband". Nora and friends don't make me look for him they make me sit and wonder and ponder choices and paths and a little C.S. Lewis.

Yes, linda "tortured Romance" but a different type of torture for the characters and the reader. Twisted Evil
That concludes my morning random thoughts
Embarassed
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Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
but "keep the reasons historically correct" or something like that. So i question is my difficulty with this based on gender biase that is built in with me and fiction. (not real life, although somewhat there too)


I'm willing to go with the flow when it's a normal way of things in the time period the novel is set. I'd rather an author stay true to the time period in more ways than not. So when reading a historical romance I know that sometimes the heroines will be young, though not 15, that would be a bit much for me. There are many things that were acceptable in the past that are not so now and thank goodness. The Siren isn't a historical though, I don't think you can excuse some of the actions because way back when it was no big deal. IMHO.

Quote:
2) This series is certainly not a traditional Romance. We don't have the main characters following the formula. I do think The Siren ended with everyone getting HEA. Nora went back to Soren and they are a pair as is Zach and Grace. Wes need to move on, he isn't Nora's HEA and she Shouldn't be his. The interesting thing and really creative is that Nora writes erotica but the book she is trying to write in The Siren is a different type of Romance were the two lovers come apart at the end. So is that foreshadowing for this series?


Definitely not traditional romance and actually not a romance to me at all. A love story though? Maybe, but it's hard for me to get past Nora seeing Soren's bruises and welts as love.

Quote:
I think Michael (not talking about age, just him) was born with a certain set of fetishes or thoughts and interests. That doesn't mean I think he should be food for others hunger, but it also doesn't mean that he shouldn't get some support, and maybe this is the only way these folks know to support and mentor (not that makes it right, but sometimes or most of the time people do the best they can and do what they know)


I don't think Michael or anyone is born with a certain set of thoughts and fetishes, I think these mostly develop due to the environment we are in. To me that reasoning seems a little too convenient to let the characters slide for their actions, the author may be presenting this but so far I'm not buying into it. There may be personalities that are more prone to certain types of behaviors (like addiction) but I don't think they are fated one way or the other, I don't think the desire for 'kinky' sex is inborn. At 15 the brain is still developing and Michael is at a very impressionable age.

Quote:
4) So that brings me to the question that runs around my head a lot with this series. IS Michael harmed? and in what way is he harmed? and are we all harmed by our journey in so way? So is harm unavoidable? OK that was multiple questions. I don't have any answers because I don't think Nora was harmed. I don't want her life, but I am pretty sure Nora's character has just as many checks in the got that right/got that wrong columes as me. I don't get everything right either.


I think Nora's personal growth has been stunted, there is no balance to her life, it's all and always about sex and the giving and receiving of pain. I've mentioned before that she doesn't even have a friendship where this hasn't come into play. I think she is completely consumed in the addiction, her entire world revolves around it and even her writing. When I think of her character I think of lost possibilities. She's happy with her life now though and I wouldn't want to take that away from her. I don't think that excuses Soren's actions however or makes them any less chilling/dangerous. It's like the parent that was abused as a child and said 'Well I turned out fine.' and then goes on to do it to their own children. They don't know any other way and don't realize they could do so much better. The fact that Nora is carrying on what Soren did with her by taking on Michael shows that the cycle is being repeated.

Quote:
4) which brings me to the justification issue. I have been thinking about that too. And I am pretty perfect in my life...never make any mistakes IMO, but if you interviewed my kids or husband they might tell you every now and then I make a slight mis-step but that I also justify my reasons for doing what I did. Point being the characters aren't the only ones that "justify (my love)" their actions IMO every one of us real life people do that. These are the things for me that make the characters so good and so complicated and interesting to read.


Oh gosh this I cannot relate to, I am so far from perfect and readily admit it! Yes, it's true that at some level we justify our actions but just like the thief that justifies stealing from the rich, that doesn't make it right. It's hard for me as a reader to see Soren and Nora justify their own actions and I think the author gives them the playing field in which to do this. Not a criticism of the writing but makes me uncomfortable with how the story plays out.

Quote:
I can pick up a thousand traditional romances and get some of a dozen formula stories, which don't stir a thought in my brain other than "were is my husband". Nora and friends don't make me look for him they make me sit and wonder and ponder choices and paths and a little C.S. Lewis.


These books are definitely 'heavy' reads that make you think, make you uncomfortable (me anyway) and make me cringe. Not the kind of thing I would be in the mood for all the time but have been interesting as far as something different. Again I will give Harlequin credit for stepping outside of what is the usual for them, variety is good.

ETA: Judy I feel like I should add this on just in case, I think it's perfectly OK for you to feel differently about the characters actions as I do and I hold no personal judgement for you at all! At the end of the day we all know that this is a work of fiction. The very best of stories are those that take us places we normally wouldn't go, wouldn't experience or visit in real life.

Linda
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Judyblueeyes



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Linda, thank you again for your statement that our disscussion isn't personal and I feel the same way. This to me is like texting or emails, lots of details are lost (and letters of words too) in the typing. And sometimes the right word or discription doesn't make it to the page to convy a feeling, emotion or thougth.

A bigger thank you that you engage in the conversation about the story. It is one of those books that I need to talk with people about. And if this wasn't the right place (not a romance) then I please forgive me for bring it to the table. Embarassed

And lastly, Shocked I must confess, incase anyone didn't get my sarcasium, but I know I am not perfect, I do try hard and my point was usually my mistakes didn't start out as mistake, I always have justification for doing the things I do, just others might not see it as the correct move or the right justification. * which also leaves open that there are times when what I do is correct, but someone might think I have made a mistake, because they are mistaken*

So stealing is stealing, but somethings I don't always feel are black and white. Historical romance are a time and place thing. And in this country childhood/adulthood numbers have moved up and down the line. I am clear on how I feel about FSoG, Elena had an on-going relationship and I have a problem with that. Micheal, was a one time deal that she only regrets in the legal sense, which does bother me, and now on chapter whatever in The Angel bothers me more because Nora is now becoming Elena and in FSoG it wasn't written about it was just mentioned and it doesn't make me feel better that Michael is older than Christian by this point.

Nora being all sexuality doesn't bother me one bit. I now real people (girls) that had daddy issues (Nora is classic Daddy issue material) and hung all over any guy that would give them the time of day and then wondered what happened when the guys got what they wanted and moved on. At least Nora isn't one of those girls. She owns that she is a VERY sexual being and makes no excuses. Is she a sex addict, I dont' think so, I personally don't agree that there is such a thing. Although I am a diet coke addict, so I guess anything can be an addiction.
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Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judy I'm sorry, I didn't get the sarcasm! I really thought you were serious! Embarassed So you're right, some things don't come through when written when we can't hear tone of voice. Forgive me for being slow on the uptake.

Yes, some issues are black and white and some are gray. I can see this is a 'grayer' (word?) area for you than it is for me, with regards to Michael's age. That's ok and I wouldn't make any personal judgments on you because of it, I was afraid I was coming across that way in my replies.

It's not that I have a problem with Nora being consumed with sex, being a sexual being, I would just have liked to see more balance. It has completely consumed her life to the point of all else, she has nothing else outside of it. Even Soren has something else via his priesthood - though that's a whole other issue. My point being, there is something in his life that is not directly related to sex in some way, at least so it seems. Owning your sexuality is good, allowing it to own you is a different story, imho. There is more to your life than diet coke, to use your example, even though you may love to drink it.

Linda
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Judyblueeyes



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:

It's not that I have a problem with Nora being consumed with sex, being a sexual being, I would just have liked to see more balance. It has completely consumed her life to the point of all else, she has nothing else outside of it. Even Soren has something else via his priesthood - though that's a whole other issue. My point being, there is something in his life that is not directly related to sex in some way, at least so it seems. Owning your sexuality is good, allowing it to own you is a different story, imho. There is more to your life than diet coke, to use your example, even though you may love to drink it.

Linda


OMG, that is a good point! I know you have been saying it, but I just didn't think about Soren having (by way of living 2 very different lives) a whole world. Maybe Nora's journey will be to get a life. Not that I feel sorry for her or do I think her character thinks she is missing anything. But you are right, every relationship is sex based or started as sex based. Nora does speak to Grace on the phone, so there is a glimer that Nora could have a women friend if one could be found.

Man she does need a hobby or volunteering or something to round out her experiences. I just didn't see it incomparison to say Soren's round life. And it would be Soren's fault in the beginning because he wanted her issolated or she wouldn't of been.

So I will be thinking about this now. I wouldn't like that for myself or anyone I care about, but as for character developement and having deep true to form characters it is very sound.

**Have been busy doing stuff today and not really time to read, along with the fact that "training" Michael is on the agenda and I think I am practicing some avoidance or delay tactics***
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willaful



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:
I've been thinking of the nature vs nurture in the 'kinky sex' dept, though kinky seems a light word for the levels of pain that goes on between them. I don't think kinky sex is instinctual as it's compared to being attracted to someone of the same sex in a homosexual.


Based on the kinky people I know, I'd have to disagree -- I think it's as much a part of them as a gender preference. There's a line in The Siren which I very much agree with, something like "A fetish is either the pet you feed or the beast that eats you."

Not talking about people who just mildly enjoy being spanked now and then, of course. But I think it's very clear that Nora et.al. are of the other variety.
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willaful



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:
I don't think Michael or anyone is born with a certain set of thoughts and fetishes, I think these mostly develop due to the environment we are in.


You may well be right, but it kind of doesn't matter. The kinkiest person I know started having those feelings at 4 years old. The actual cause, if there is one, is pretty much irrelevant to him as an adult.
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